037 - Derek DuChesne on Ketamine for Psychedelic Assisted Therapy

Danny Mulvihill  0:15
Welcome back to another episode of The MindState Podcast. Today, my guest is Derrick DuChesne, co-founder of Better You psychedelic therapy. They specialize in alternative and integrative medicine, with focus also in holistic psychiatry. So I'm super excited to get into this. Derek, welcome to the show! Thanks for being here.

Derek DuChesne  0:38  
Thank you, Danny, really, really excited to dive in with you. There's a lot to cover, and I really appreciate you and your work and looking forward to this.

Danny Mulvihill  0:47  
Heck, yeah. I always like to start things out getting to know the guest. You know, in some ways, this episode is like we're kind of on this more focused topic of specifically like ketamine, but psychedelic therapy in general. But I still want to know a bit more about you and for listeners to be able to kind of understand where you're coming from. And so my first question, sorry, if I throw you a curveball right off the bat, but do you have a secret life as an American actor, as noted on IMDb?

Derek DuChesne  1:20  
Yeah, in a previous life. I grew up in a.. you know, small town, and, you know, middle of nowhere in Wisconsin, and my dream, since, you know, since I can remember, it was always to be.. to be a writer. And as soon as I could, you know, when I was -- the town I grew up in, you know, people don't leave and you know, people don't have passports, you know, the very.. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:45  
Yeah 

Derek DuChesne  1:46  
Is a farm town. But, you know, I grew up on a farm that -- the farm, farm kids were the rich ones. And the dream.. Yeah, it was always always, you know, loving and appreciating the power of story, and how we thrive and live and the fulfillment and closure that we get, you know, when, when the credits roll. And, yeah, so that was really my dream growing up. And I came to Los Angeles, when I was 18 years old, and worked everything from being a PA and holding the lights to hosting a Disney show to acted in a handful of really incredible films was fortunate to work alongside Robert De Niro, Bruce Willis, Michael C Hall, a lot, a lot of great people, and then produced all the way up to the production level where it produced my first feature film. And that was all prior to moving back. Back home to take care of my mom, because she wasn't she wasn't doing so well. And that's when my life really shifted into helping others.. helping others find healing.

Danny Mulvihill  2:56  
Amazing. I'm so glad you said yes. Because the funny thing about this is, if you Google my name, I've managed to like overcome a little bit more of the real estate on Google. 

Derek DuChesne  3:07  
Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  3:08  
For a long time. The first hit was always this actor. And I've even had like calls with people where they assumed I was that person. I was like, no, no, that.. So what I 

Derek DuChesne  3:20  
I'm just gonna say it's my twin.

Danny Mulvihill  3:23  
Well see that's what tipped me off is I was like, That looks a heck of a lot like Derek, and like, if it's not him. Then something -- this is wild. All right, cool. Thanks for indulging us in that little background story there. Let's zoom right in then to 2019. So you and I spoke about a week ago and kind of you gave me a little bit of the backstory, but to get everybody up to speed. As you put it, there's basically two events that really challenged your identity, and ultimately kind of led to some mental health struggles of your own. And as I understand it, that's kind of where at least this current chapter started. So if you could paint the picture for us, so we all know where it all comes from.

Derek DuChesne  4:11  
Yeah, that's where to start the I never thought depression or suicide would be a part of my life. I've always been very excited about life. I've always been very motivated. And yeah, just really, really grateful for the opportunities that life presents. And as I said earlier, that you know where I grew up, wasn't really a place where..where people leave, and one of my dreams was always to be able to travel the world and ended up helping my mom find something that helps with -- helped her and she you know, at the time had ovarian cancer, fibromyalgia, MS. With a lot of chronic pain, a lot of depression. And I took a road trip across country and cause she can't fly because of the pacemaker and her heart issues. And I found this incredible clinic down in Huntington Beach, that was Palliative Care Clinic and they were treating people with types of plant medicine. And that led me down the path of.. I tried giving my mom cannabis edibles in the past as alternative to pain management. And she had a very adverse reaction to THC. Very allergic reaction, which is you know, a lot more common than you think. And they were using non psychoactive and different types of cannabinoids and, and high dosage suppositories for these. And within weeks, like six, six to eight weeks, she was off of, you know, probably 60% of her meds. And she was a lot more coherent, a lot more present. She started to, you know, she was my mom again. Right? And that was.. I was blown away. How does nobody -- how is this not an option after years of every kind of specialist and oncologist and pain management and every kind of thing that, this was never an option. So I started something called Healing Ventures and at the time, was a brand incubation and platform where and company where we would help people incorporate these types of ingredients into their alternative health care products. At the time, it was still illegal. This is pre 2016. So this is pre 2018, hemp farm bill where we allowed to use these other cannabinoids, in, you know, in production. And after that, after 2016 to 2018 the only people that would really work with us was California cannabis companies because they understood the benefits of these things. And they also wanted to scale outside of you know, their, their state jurisdictions. So, for example of brands, you know, that we worked with, you know, it went really well. And we were helping a lot of people. And then after 2018 farm bill passed.. the whole world, you know, the dominoes fell, right? For -- for that industry, and every pharmaceutical, tobacco, cosmetics, pets, food and beverage, health and wellness, every expo, you know, across the world suddenly turned in to the CBD show. And super exciting. And my dream was always to travel and see the world. And once work got more and more demanding and more and more exciting. And I was living in different, different hotel rooms and on different flights. I think it was on, on the road, 300 days in 2019.. 

Danny Mulvihill  8:06  
Oof, wow.

Derek DuChesne  8:07  
Yeah, so as you can imagine, you know, a lot of overloaded schedule, overloaded stimulation, not enough sleep, and you know, traveling a lot, and I didn't know how to.. how to you know, I didn't have the right habits and still to be able to take that on. So I go see my, my doctor, not a psychiatrist, just a you know, general doctor, and they're -- the first thing was here, take this, take this for sleep. Alright, take this for anxiety. Take this for, for focusing, right? So I'm on this combination of Adderall, Xanax, Ambien, and 

Danny Mulvihill  8:49  
Wow

Derek DuChesne  8:49  
And yeah, and, you know, it turned me.. it changed, I think a lot of my normal thought patterns, and then my normal ambitions and instead of addressing -- instead of addressing, hey, like, here's, you know, lifestyle changes, right, here are some nutritional changes. Here's, do you have, I wish the conversation was, you know, do you have anxiety or just have a lot on your plate? Let's figure out how to manage, manage these things in a better way? Do you have sleep issues? You know, or.. or is it you know, again, your schedule management and these other things that are stemming into it? Do you have focus issues? Or is it because you're eating at restaurants and, and airports and fast food all the time and not maintaining your nutrition? And, you know, that wasn't the conversation. It was take this pill, take this pill, take this pill. And after, you know, burning, burning at both ends for being on the road that long? I thought I was building -- we were building this really incredible company and this really incredible organization scaling very rapidly. And it seemed, for a long, you know, a good period of time, I had a really good run, it was a dream come true. And I was with the, you know, a girl for a couple years that, at the time I believed was my person, and we're going to get married and having this, exploring that and looking at rings, and the company was we just raised 40 million and growth capital, and which was, you know, numbers that at the time, I couldn't even imagine that I was building, you know, a part of building this incredible thing that was helping a lot of people. And we have to -- we're going through this acquisition, and I didn't know much about acquisitions, or, or.. or, you know, those types of things. And protecting myself, it was a very, you know, I was younger, and when the contracts were signed, and, and within a couple of weeks, towards the end of 2019, I found out that, yes, around the same time that my previous business partners were, were -- the acquisition is supposed to take place in December, January, my next set of real vesting equity was happening in February. And, you know, the majority of the capital that was coming in was from my international relationships and the work that I was doing. And instead of that, reflecting on the acquisition, and what we'd agreed to, that they were working quickly to get me out. So they didn't have to

Danny Mulvihill  11:40  
Wow

Derek DuChesne  11:41  
Compensate that. And, you know, I didn't understand or realize it at the time, when the news came to me that when my partners were exploring ways to relieve me of my duties in my contract, right before this acquisition, and right after, you know, a tremendous year, but I also sacrificed, you know, my, my time, my relationship, my, my health being on the road that much. And it doesn't -- yeah, and within a couple of weeks, I also found out that the girl that I thought was, was my person I was on easy street right, I had the dream career, I had the dream relationship, or at least so I thought.. and when I found out that she wasn't faithful, and blamed me for working too much. You know, it sent me down. A combination of both of those things sent me down this spiral of shame, blame, guilt, and looking at -- reflecting at the last couple of years in my life, that it was all you know, for, for nothing and everything that I thought that I was building for, and I didn't realize it at the time, but I 100% identified as with my, who I was as a person with my relationship and with my business. And when both of those unexpectedly took, took a 180.. I didn't know who I was anymore. And I wasn't eating, I wasn't sleeping. I was still kind of rotating between the Ambien, Xanax and trying to pick myself back up off the ground. And as days and weeks and months went on, it just got worse. And these felt like I was, I was drowning and everybody else around me was breathing. And I didn't feel like I could connect with anybody or nobody understood me. And when I went and saw a therapist, we've got run antidepressants. And for you know,

probably two weeks, I would sit at my house and I would just watch the sun come up and go down and I was staring at a bottle of Xanax and a bottle of tequila. And I was thinking about how I can't do this to my mom. I can't, I can't 

Danny Mulvihill  14:31  
throw in..

Derek DuChesne  14:31  
Yeah, I can't throw in the towel just yet because of what, you know, what it would do to her. And a friend of mine.. I came over and he recommended -- strongly recommended that we, he was like, Let's go Let's go somewhere. I'm taking you somewhere. You need help you look terrible. And nobody can get a hold of you and you gotta, you gotta snap out of this. And it's like I you know, I know. I know. I need help, like please and told me where we're going and it was a ketamine clinic. And, you know, my first response, I mean, my whole ethos was plant based medicine. And ketamine, the only thing that I knew was it was a horse tranquilizer? You know, I was very reluctant or apprehensive to try that. And also the cost was $1,500 for one session, I grew up in Wisconsin, we don't we don't spend much on our mental health but at that point, what else did I have to lose? Right? I already lost myself, almost, almost completely. And I go into the clinic, really, really nervous. And the doctor, you know, I see Harvard credentials on the wall. And the doctor brings me in a room, asked me why I'm there. And I start telling him even an abbreviated version of what I just shared with you. And he cuts me off two minutes into the story. And in asked me, I guess have you ever done ketamine before? I said, No. And he goes, have you ever.. have you ever done mushrooms before? And said, Yes, and he goes Oh, you'll be fine. So that was the treatment preparation..

Danny Mulvihill  16:15  
Preparation. Yes.

Derek DuChesne  16:17  
office and, and after this, they plugged me in how many.. I think they had me count, count backwards, took my blood pressure or count backwards from 100. And then I'm asked headphones, and I almost immediately had this, I felt like I could breathe again. I like this, this elephant that's been having his foot on my chest for who knows how long, had finally lifted that weight. And it was incredibly powerful, probably the most significant moment in my life, especially at that time. And it felt like I was on this kind of floating down, down, down this wave of a lot of beautiful, subtle, very subtle, but beautiful colors. And the music was tremendous. And it allowed me to separate myself from..from my thoughts, and separate myself from these, these repetitive, very dark thoughts that I've been drowning in for so long. And look at them from, you know, from a different point of view and realize that we're really reconnected myself and kind of refill my cup and realize that I am not my thoughts. It was the first time that I think I gave myself permission to release all the tension and stress and anger and depression, resentment and shame, like I was spiraling and what if, what if, what if, what if I did this? What if I did this differently? Why didn't I see the, the writing on the wall? How foolish blaming myself so much. How foolish could I be? And once I stepped away from all of those, and gave myself a little bit of a breather, and reframed that perspective, and that allowed me to align with, with myself again, and improve that relationship with myself almost immediately. For me, it was a lifesaver. You know, being in the alternative healthcare space, I was blown away that I didn't know about it. I didn't understand what it just happened like on a neurobiological level or on a spiritual level.

Danny Mulvihill  18:41  
So you'd have like the psychedelic framework to go off of you, or had an experience with mushrooms. One thing that's so interesting about ketamine is how it's dissociative. And like how you're describing it, let you separate from your thoughts. That aspect of ketamine feels a lot different than any other psychedelics I've experienced. Can you talk through, if you remember any significant thoughts you were having? Or insights? What was the felt experience for you to kind of give people a sense of maybe somebody who's a little fearful or, you know, not excited or enthusiastic about psychedelics, so they can know what to expect, in some sense.

Derek DuChesne  19:22  
Danny, you're absolutely right. You know, and having having some experience with psychedelics in the past and understanding, you know, with.. with MDMA, it's very external. Its internal and external where things feel really good. The touch has increased, you're kind of overflowing with with love. Psilocybin is also you know, a lot of its visual and external, with ketamine. For me, it was like an almost an immediate silencer on, on the outside world and, and on all of my thoughts that were digging me deeper and deeper into this dark hole. So almost immediately, those finally went away. And it just gave me this overwhelming sense. I mean, at the time, yeah, it was definitely overwhelming, because I haven't felt it in so long it wasn't familiar to me. But these feelings of gratitude that,that I am alive, and that it's okay, that these things happen to me. And, like, I've never been, I've never had that victim mentality. You know, why me, why this, why this happened. I never thought depression or suicide would be controlling my life. And it allowed me to just immediately quiet those thoughts and refocus and recenter on things in my life that are good, the things that are good about, about me, you know, while these things didn't work out, you know, quieting the noise mean, like, well, you know, I had a pretty good run, and we learned a lot. And it's okay for these things to happen in life. And these are just exactly that things that happened in life, right, these things do not define me, these things are not who I am. And unlike, you know, storytelling, or writing. The credits, the credits don't roll for a long time, right. So we still, we still got to wake up tomorrow, we still got to show up the best that we can, and we got to fill up, you know, our cups with love and gratitude and, and align with ourselves as opposed to, you know, so we can bring that out into the world, I never thought especially, you know, for the six months prior to this, that I would be even talking about these words of gratitude and refilling my carpet, bringing stuff into the world. But immediately, it just -- Yeah, it allowed me to separate from, from these things that were just burying me into the ground. And once you shift that perspective, with those things in your life, and you shift that you separate from those emotions, on this really powerful internal journey, like it's not, you know, it wasn't all comfortable by any means, right? It was the things that I was bearing, like, right in my face, and you know, was reliving and, and focusing on some of these, these very traumatic and dark moments, but it allowed me to face them and process them and change my relationship with those things. 

Danny Mulvihill  22:42  
Yeah

Derek DuChesne  22:43  
You know, after this session, don't get me wrong, but the ketamine is not the cure all, right. It's not the panacea, magic pill, that you take this and you're going to be better in life, right? My underlying issues, were still there, I still had to figure out, you know, what's next in my life, with my company, my team, what's next? My journey for me,  am I, am I still motivated to continue down this path, that I've burnt myself out with thinking that I can do it all, all the time, and go as hard as I can, as fast as I can. And so obviously, those underlying issues were still there. But the 90.. I was 90% back, right? Like it completely snapped me out of this, this funk. And from there, you know, being able to reflect on a lot of things in my life that weren't serving me and other, you know, professional and personal, like friendships that weren't serving me and allowed me to look at, yes, just things in my life that were either normalized by, you know, my colleagues, or normalized by my friends, you know, when you're going through something tough in life, what do your friends do? Let me take you out for a beer. 

Danny Mulvihill  23:55  
Right

Derek DuChesne  23:56  
And alcohol. And in dealing with tough times in your life, they do not, do not mix at all. And, and immediately, you know, one of the things that came up during my session was, you know, I prior to that I hadn't been, you know, as a child, like, I think any American boy, between the ages of nine and 18 is, you know, if you if you are too loud or too excited, or just acting like a normal child in school, like, yeah, he's little. He's Adderall. Right? So yeah, who knows what kind of neurological damage or long term damage that, that does or stress that it puts on on our brain? But as a child, you know, I was on Adderall and became, I was prescribed astronomical amount of prescribed 60 milligrams a day as a child. And that just made me a complete zombie. And 

Danny Mulvihill  24:56  
Wow 

Derek DuChesne  24:56  
I mean, I crushed it with School. I'm raising my hand, I've never been more excited, I've never read so much. Definitely affected, you know, who I was, and my personality and, and, you know, I think also stem to turn into sleep, agitation, anger issues, and then those types of things. And so I got off of that when, you know, when I was 18, and didn't look back until, you know, the plate was overflowing with, with work, and I didn't, didn't know how to handle it all. Oh, let's take that that magic pill and you know that, that stemmed into turning into more problems. So after my ketamine session, I started talking to my clinician, like, hey, how do I safely wean off of these things that I don't feel, are serving me at all. And that was really beneficial as well.

Danny Mulvihill  25:51  
The interesting thing about how psychedelics.. they have this effect of sometimes just reminding people, what it used to be like, or what it could be like, so for example, with depression, MDMA, and I think ketamine, in particular, are really good at just transporting the person to this other state of mind to be like, oh, yeah, like to even give them a target to move towards, right. Because when you're in the like, the thick of it, it's just, you don't know where, what it could ever be like, there's no path, it just seems like you're at the bottom of a hole,

Derek DuChesne  26:28  
It's just very, very alone, right? When, when you're not feeling connected to yourself, it's really hard to connect with the outside world, right, it's really hard to connect with your friends, your family, your relationships, I mean, it's, you know, when you, when you don't have that connection with yourself are in touch with what's going on inside. And I never felt more alone in my entire life than I did through that period. And for those last few months, and one of the things during the session is almost immediately I felt this sense of connection to, you know, this, this oneness with myself and this oneness with the people that that I'd cut out of my life with, with business and the relationship. Like I was like, this is.. it's okay, these are bad things that happen. But, you know, it's, it's all a part of this, this learning journey, this healing journey. And, you know, people made these decisions based on their own paths and their own journeys, and just making peace with these things and making peace like and still feeling this connection. But changing that connection from I needed this to work or I, I poured everything into this to work, and making me just feel like more grounded and going internal, right, we can quiet that internal chatter and deep dive and reflect on things in your life. It's really incredible to see what comes up, right, and it's not all rainbows and butterflies definitely wasn't for me. But it's taking that hard look in the mirror. And that very introspective journey. And being okay with it. Not only being okay with it, but processing it, and reconnecting and falling in love with your -- with the world again, giving yourself some self love, right? When we're going through these extended periods of chronic stress and chronic anxiety or depression or especially suicidal ideation, not because we're loving ourselves, right? It's because, yeah, the opposite. We're hating ourselves, we're beating ourselves up and speaking to ourselves in a way that we would never probably speak to anybody.

Danny Mulvihill  29:00  
I really liked that reframing of things. If somebody talked to you the way you talk to yourself, like, would you hang out with that person? You know, saying, or and would you expect anybody to like stick around? If you spoke to them like that, stop doing it to yourself, man

Derek DuChesne  29:17  
Right, like you have to enter the time, I never would have imagined saying this. And I think a lot of people that are going through similar things. You know, it's hard to say, Oh, I you know, I'm practicing this grant, my gratitude journal on practicing every day, positive affirmations. That's, that's, you know, and I grew up in the Midwest. So that's as cheesy, that's corny, that doesn't work. And you know, a lot of traditional CBT exercises or talk therapy exercises that can be very powerful and effective, but we're so stuck in our rigid neural pathways and we're so stuck in our ways of thinking that a lot of those things can feel like we're going through the motions but not affect us, right. And with ketamine therapy, specifically, you know, at least for, for what it was for me, it allowed me to kind of step out of those, those rigid thought patterns that I had constructed over an entire lifetime. And make me more receptive to self care, self love, actually... utilizing all the things that you know, the therapists tell you to do, and all the dozen self help books, and going back and revisiting those things like, wow, this is really powerful. One of the things that when you.. somebody asked me, I think that affected me a lot, is, what is the first thing that you tell yourself when you wake up? And I said don't know. I was like, does it. 

Danny Mulvihill  30:51  
Do you know that?

Derek DuChesne  30:52  
And he's like that's a problem, like, why? He's like, because we have to be our own best friends. So he gave me his -- he's a coach for a lot of incredible executives and athletes. He gave me this.. text me like a very long texted like his eight minute morning boot sequence. And it's eight months of, you know, I am loyal, I am honest, I am ambitious, going through this kind of four sections, your quality traits, the things that you love in life, he told me, he's like, for the next 30 days, the first thing when you wake up in the morning, start going through this. And when I first started doing it, this is cheesy..

Danny Mulvihill  31:38  
So stupid.. 

Derek DuChesne  31:39  
So silly, and that it was really tough the first few days, but I committed to myself that I'm gonna, I'm gonna get through this. And I'm gonna give it a shot. And after, I don't know, four or five days a week, like my days, just throughout the entire day, I was feeling better. And

Danny Mulvihill  32:01  
How soon after your initial ketamine treatments, did that, practice, enter, was it? Is it something later that happened? Or were you

Derek DuChesne  32:10  
This was, yeah, this was probably two months after -- I was blown away about, like, what happened to me, right? I went from this really dark shell of a human being to within a couple hours, back.. back to reality. And so after this, I spent some time with a friend who is, you know, pre COVID, and her sisters that had Epidemiology at Stanford, and we went to dinner. And she introduced me to somebody who was working at the psychedelic research institute at Stanford, okay, I connected with him, and I was like, you'll never believe what happened to me, and tells me, you know, you could heal how you have no idea. And I was very fortunate to spend some time, quite a.. quite a bit of time with their team and with the depression clinic, and seeing with what this does for not only suicidal ideation, but seeing firsthand for end of life care, and people that are very, very depressed. At least the people that I've met, that were going through the program that had already lost, you know, all a lot of their friends and family members and just didn't feel like there was anything to look forward to. And being able to, I was fortunate enough to be able to be a part of a few of these sessions, and every single one of them that I was a part of, after the session, they would come out of it, in tears or near it. And yeah, having a very similar response, like I'm happy with the life that I've lived, I've, you know, I've lived a full life, I've never felt this connected to God or to the universe. And it was, you know, that's probably the single most impactful moments of my life being able to, to witness that. And then learning about the future of not just psychedelic therapy, right, but of medicine and the future of humanity, mankind of, you know, the alternatives that we've seen what doesn't work, right, we've seen -- there's a lot a lot of data and you know, one in 10 people in the US on a psychotropic right or you have, you know, as culture over like, if you travel anywhere else in the world. It's not the first thing like you're having I stubbed my toe, let me take a pill, you know, let me take a pill. Oh, I got my sore elbow. Let me take a pill. Having a stressful day. Let me take a pill like we over prescribe and we over diagnose and my entire life seeing like my mom's 59 And she has early onset Alzheimer's, which is bizarre was because she has had a really, really tough life and a lot of medical issues, mental health issues and seeing the data that's come out over the last few years of long term use of SSRIs. painkillers. Benzos is all of these things on top of everything else, right on top of needing hip surgery, back surgery, fibromyalgia and like for years, everybody would tell her that that's not doctors, but that's not a real thing. That's all psychosomatic. Now fortunately

Danny Mulvihill  32:28  
Fibromyalgia? 

Derek DuChesne  32:54  
Yeah, yeah, doctors like growing up there. Like, that's not it's not a real thing. It's all on your head. And it's all psychological. And I'd be sitting in my living room, and I hear a thud hit the ground, and my mom's in the kitchen doing dishes, and I walk in the kitchen, she's, you know, smacked her head on the sink, and she's on the ground, like, oh, my gosh, and, and this would happen.. you know, weekly, and the doctors  -- and I would go to the doctor's appointments with her. I'm a little kid and like, I just want my mom to be better. And every doctor's telling it, it's not a real thing. It's all in her head. And like, this is a very real thing. 

Danny Mulvihill  36:08  
That's nuts 

Derek DuChesne  36:09  
Fortunately, the care and the attention is shifted. And now Fibromyalgia is really recognized. But we've seen you know, what doesn't work and looking to the future for PTSD, for opiate addiction, for suicidal ideation, people that have attempted suicide, right? How do we bring them bring them back from that mindset? So they don't want to do it? Again, something that really frustrates me. And I used to be like, this.. was Robin Williams dying, right? Kurt Cobain, all these very public and very incredible people that committed suicide. And the first thing that everybody my family, friends is like, what's wrong with them? How could they do that? They have everything, they're so selfish. You know, I can't believe they would do that. That's so selfish. What's wrong with that? Like nobody in their right mind, and nobody that's thinking clearly thinks I'm going to end my life? Right? It's yeah, because our brain isn't functioning properly, right? We are sick. And we're, we're telling ourselves that this is the best option, there is something that exists that can immediately snap us out of that feeling and reconnect with ourselves. Like the numbers on suicide, especially in the veteran community, and the LGBTQ plus community. So many different communities that numbers of suicide are are astronomical. Right. So

Danny Mulvihill  37:35  
Kids, even.

Derek DuChesne  37:36  
Exactly. And that's another thing that isn't talked about, and I wish that more people would talk about is adolescence in suicide, right. And it's normal, completely normal, for.. and accepted in the medical community, for psychiatrists to prescribe children Adderall, Xanax, SSRIs. And things that have very, very powerful, lasting negative side effects. And it's not okay, like, if you talk about giving a teenager that's suicidal, and you say, hey, maybe they thought about ketamine therapy? 

Danny Mulvihill  37:36  
Yeah

Derek DuChesne  37:44  
People will look at you and be like, what you would think about giving, you know, a, an adolescent Ketamine?

Danny Mulvihill  38:20  
Absolutely. Yes.

Derek DuChesne  38:21  
Like, now like, as shocking as that may sound, if the alternative is, is them wanting to kill themselves, or them having suicidal ideation, you know, the alternative is taking other medications that haven't been effective for them. Absolutely. Like, please, yeah, please have this conversation. Please explore it, please look at the safety and efficacy and please do it, you know, with guided medical supervision, because it can save your child's life.

Danny Mulvihill  39:01  
Do you think it's likely in any sense that in the next decade, we'll start to see a legal framework for prescribing psychedelic treatment to children?

Derek DuChesne  39:09  
I am not a medical, I am not a doctor, at Better You we do both at home and in office treatments. We do not treat out anybody under the age of 18 that's, you know, at home. In clinic, the clinicians and the doctors, obviously I'm very selective case by case and having parental consent that I've seen done, you know, a lot more now, not just with the clinicians that we work with, but a lot of clinicians across the country that are now working with, with adolescents. So we work with cure for the kids, which is oncology nonprofit hospital in Las Vegas. They have over 14 years of safety data of working with pediatrics with ketamine and.. 

Danny Mulvihill  39:58  
Okay 

Derek DuChesne  39:59  
I do very strongly believe that in the future, just the same as you know, as education, well, first legal framework and FDA approval, right. And after the legal framework and FDA approval, it's the education for providers. And once providers understand, you know, the dangers of these types of medicines, and the side effects of these types of medicines, and the benefits of these types of medicines, and put those against the traditional medicine and medication that they've been prescribing, I would imagine that clinicians would apply some deductive reasoning, and, you know, weigh the pros and cons of the different treatments. And then once they have, you know, education, having psychedelic residency programs, which Dr. Zand is a developed one, and like, I think the education is critical in order for these types of things to, to get out there. But they're doctors, right? They're smart, dedicated people, typically, 

Danny Mulvihill  41:03  
Sure

Derek DuChesne  41:03  
And it was based off education, right? Like when I was talking to Dr. Zand and he told me, because you know, how much time in med school they spend on nutrition to be a psychiatrist. How long? Four hours, four hours, all of med school, you know, how much of your mental health comes from your nutrition? So much. Right? And 

Danny Mulvihill  41:29  
Yeah

Derek DuChesne  41:30  
And once I learn more about the inadequacies of clinician training, like it's not the clinicians, fault, right, it's a very broken system, based off

Danny Mulvihill  41:43  
Yeah

Derek DuChesne  41:43  
Off of its..

Danny Mulvihill  41:44  
Educational system. 

Derek DuChesne  41:44  
Yeah, it's all based off of Freudian and Rockefeller methods where it's not designed to help people heal, it's designed to diagnose the illness and mask the symptom or treat the symptom. It's not, hey, let's, let's get better. Let's get people healing. Well, the first meeting that I had with, with Sam, with my business partner, and he's such an incredible, incredible human being, an incredible healer, you kind of Jedi mind tricked me, and I thought we were there to talk with him. And he'd been treating patients with ketamine in office since 2019. He's on the spokespersons Bureau for Spravato, which is the FDA approved version of ketamine. And first meeting, you know, learning more about him and his practice and all the incredible things that he's doing. Five minutes later on the whiteboard, he's life mapping me from, you know, when I was born  to, you know, the good things in my life, traumatic things in my life, the turning points in my life, and you know, basically 20 minutes later, from my start of my life to where I'm currently at, and then drawing the rest of that now, let's have fun, and let's look at the future and all the things that we want to do. And seeing, you know, breaking down that simple exercise of breaking down your life on a life map was was really powerful. And I'm like, what, what's happening here? What's, what's going on?

Danny Mulvihill  41:44  
I thought we were gonna have a business meeting

Derek DuChesne  43:14  
Yeah, yeah and he starts talking about he was like okay, during this time. It's really difficult times in your life, you know, when you were a child, or difficult times in your adolescence or with business and relationships, or this time when you were prescribed Adderall, you know, or this time when you're prescribed Xanax or Trazodone? Or, or Ambien? Did you have anxiety, like uncontrollable anxiety? Or clinical anxiety? Or did you just have a lot on your plate, and needed to, like, have -- instill better, better habits and deploy resources more thoughtfully and effectively? And then work on your schedule more thoughtfully and effectively? You know, did you have depression issues prior to this? Or were you going through really difficult times in your life, if you lose a loved one, right? Or if you are going through really traumatic things, the first thing, typically, the doctors are going to do is prescribe you medication, right, as opposed to being like, maybe, maybe it's not depression, maybe you're going through real human emotions that are part of human nature. So let's figure out how to process those emotions how to cope with those emotions. 

Danny Mulvihill  44:30  
Yeah

Derek DuChesne  44:31  
As opposed to you know, as opposed to.. and so many psychiatrists like you know, you hear horror stories from people that we work with at Better You that they you know, that their psychiatrist doesn't even look them in the eye, right? Or they haven't seen or had a visit of a psychiatrist in six months, but they're on so many different meds or it's, you know, keep.. keep using your right arm to chew off your left arm or get the trade off.

Danny Mulvihill  44:59  
Yeah, It's odd that there isn't like when these medications are prescribed SSRIs in particular, there often doesn't seem to be a plan in place of like checking in and with some eventual goal of 

Derek DuChesne  45:15  
Getting off

Danny Mulvihill  45:15  
Repairing the mental health to the point that like, you don't need it. It's more just this sign on the dotted line for life type of thing. It seems so obvious that that's the wrong approach to take. And yet, it's the standard approach. And so, one question, I'm kind of curious about more like, from the business perspective of Better You is like, how you guys are working to just combat that narrative. In many ways, ketamine is moving more towards the cure side of the spectrum. Like, it's like, let's treat the underlying issue. Follow it up with integrative coaching, so that the lessons stick, and then let's potentially move on with life with some check in you know, but it's not like a daily thing. Do you get pushback when you're talking to potential clients? And like, I guess they're probably already somewhat qualified, they've qualified themselves for the type of treatment you do. But do you bump up against this cultural phenomenon of people expecting it to be one way and then trying to do something a little bit different? Whether it's from the customers or from competitors? Or, like the Grand competitors of pharmaceutical companies? 

Derek DuChesne  46:32  
Yeah. Danny, I think it's a very great, very, very powerful question. Because if you look at the way that mental health is treated in America, it's take this pill every day, or, you know, as needed a few times a week, for the rest of your life, right. And we are not static individuals, right? We're dynamic, always changing people. And while something may have some benefits for a bit, you know, our, our lifestyles, our thought patterns.. our diet, everything changes, right. And in our cells, on a cellular level, we're constantly.. 

Danny Mulvihill  47:18  
Changing. 

Derek DuChesne  47:19  
And the traditional method of treating these things has been take something and you'll feel better, but like we've talked about before, is a lot of these things are just masking the symptoms, right. So if you are masking the symptoms -- masking, like, we have people that come to us, and they say I about on certain medications for 10, 15, 20 years, and I could see somebody get hit by a car, and I wouldn't feel anything, I hug my grandchildren, I don't feel anything, I don't feel happy, I don't feel sad. And when you're masking your, your or disconnecting yourself that much from your feelings coming off of those kinds of medications can be.. can be very scary and very difficult. 

Danny Mulvihill  48:15  
Sure

Derek DuChesne  48:16  
And with this type of treatment, it is not meant to be a definitely not everyday thing. But it's not meant to be a long term thing. Right. And we.. we've 

Danny Mulvihill  48:28  
Yeah

Derek DuChesne  48:28  
Had on the business side, you know, investors that say, Okay, well, you know, where's as the like, you know, like, like, if it's what happens, you know, you only have you only work with people for one to three months, typically. And my response to that is always been, when you look at the numbers in the United States for depression and anxiety, there is no shortage of people that could benefit from this treatment. And, yeah, when you look at the, you know, looking at when you look at the standard of Spravato, the FDA approved version, that is a regular treatment, not daily, but it is regular treatment that you're supposed to be on, there's no there's not an end date for it, right.

Danny Mulvihill  49:16  
Ah, okay.

Derek DuChesne  49:18  
Shocker, right. 

Danny Mulvihill  49:20  
Yeah. 

Derek DuChesne  49:21  
But our protocols, and everybody's different, right. So, I'd say.. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people that come through our program, they'll do one to two months, typically, and then the clinicians will have them space it out. So if they're doing it once a week, then on the second month, let's try it once every 10 days or once every two weeks so they can get here's the lasting benefits. And then by month three, it's.. it's do we need this? like let's not -- let's try it maybe once a month, right and, and some people will say like, a few weeks later or 10 days later, or a month later I started to notice I was falling back into old thought patterns and old habits. So you know, maybe I want to do this as a booster at home and with in office with the IM injections. Typically, people will go through a series of eight sessions. And that's to the medicines compounding throughout that time, right. And after those eight sessions, the goal is to achieve that neurological reset, where we're able to break out of those repetitive disempowering thought patterns, and makes our brains you know, enhances neuroplasticity. So we're able to be a lot more receptive to traditional therapeutic exercise is more receptive to the content that we're putting in. And that goes both ways right after a session. You don't want to put on Dexter, you don't want to put on you know, a horror movie. Or you don't want to definitely go out and have conversations, we're very thoughtful and conscious about this with with people we work with is, you know, the day after the day of or few days after, be very mindful of the content you're consuming of the conversations you're having. If there's people in your life, then all they do is stress you out or they're negative, or Doom scrolling, you know, all these things, we need to step away from because we are more impressionable during this time kind of resets our brain.

Danny Mulvihill  51:21  
That's probably one of the top three things I think people should walk away from when they think about ketamine, specifically. Is it does have this neurodegenerative effect, where it can actually like repair, literal brain damage. 

Derek DuChesne  51:34  
Yep

Danny Mulvihill  51:34  
And so it creates that neuroplasticity you're referring to? And because of that, to use your exact phrase, it does cut both ways. That has to be a part of the plan. It's like, what am I going to do following this treatment? What thoughts am I going to encourage through my environment and through my own awareness, so that I can make the most of this effect long term? And I guess that's probably where the integrative coaching comes into play. So I'd really like to hear Better You's approach to the post things like what are some of the things that you really want to highlight that clients can walk away with to make the habit changes stick as much as possible?

Derek DuChesne  52:19  
Danny, I'm so happy you asked that, because so frequently, people will message us after treatment, they'll say I've had the best week of my life, you know, I've had the best day of my life. And I'm really, really excited that things are starting to get better. And then they jump on with our integration coaches. And our integration coaches are the most incredible people they've been through a lot they're very experienced with with psychedelic medicine, with trauma informed training. And they are very, very good at holding space for people. And also having those difficult conversations with people. Where if somebody says, I've just had the best week of my life, like, Great, let's talk about it, let's unpack it. Now let's let's look at, like, what is how much sunshine do you get every day? How much? How much do you like? How often do you sweat? And how long do you sweat for every day? What's what's your, what's your eating habits, like? And especially during the pandemic, people would say, oh, a lot of people I haven't been outside and in days or weeks or even months, I.. you know, I have a problem with you know, getting food delivery or fast food. And, and I'm very unhealthy, right or I don't exercise or I don't work out or unfortunately, like people -- my mom's situation that aren't really mobile. You know, that's a really challenging thing to overcome. But you know, there are ways with the importance of integration is like, helping people understand that ketamine is not their.. it is not the answer to their success or happiness, right, it is an incredible tool in our arsenal to help us realign and reconnect with ourselves. And now let's dive into what are our what are the stories that we tell ourselves, right? What are the conversations that we tell ourselves? What are our habits? Are we setting up ourselves for success? Are we setting ourselves for, for are we setting ourselves up for happiness, right? Because without, right, without movement every day without sunshine, without eating the right, you know, without eating the right things? It's, you know, no, there's no magic pill that's gonna take, take the place of that, right. So the integration not only looks at it from that holistic, that holistic approach, but also helps you unpack and digest. A lot of times when people do sessions, they know there's really powerful, really, really powerful moments happen if somebody recently lost somebody, and they can say, like, these memories surfaced, or I was able to kind of reconnect or feel, feel them near me, or I'm processing, you know, past trauma or child abuse, or an abusive relationship or a lot of people with alcohol addiction. And, you know, in a lot of builds, that it helps process, helps them unpack and process their experience. And it's important that, like I said, before, it's not all healing and mental wellness, it's not a destination, like one day, we're happy with the rest of our lives, right? Like, it's still life, there's still ups and downs, maybe the roller coasters not nearly, at least, for a lot of people that go through this, it's a lot more of it, and even-keeled than what it was prior. But understanding that every day, you know, we have to show up for ourselves, we have to do the work, we have to we have like it doesn't, the medication does not work without committing to yourself.

Danny Mulvihill  56:20  
I like that point that it's not just a magic pill, because I myself sort of suffered from that perception a little bit. I think it.. it was maybe it was actually kind of during the pandemic that I realized, like in the right in front of me that this thing I had always thought of as a superpower, which was not really getting emotional, messed up, things could happen, or even sad things can happen. And I almost like pride myself on not crying. Yeah, not being affected by it. And then like, probably just the podcast I was listening to and the books I was reading, this little crack in my armor started to form and I was like, maybe that's maybe that's not actually the best thing. And so as I started trying to get closer to unpacking that, somewhere along the way, I started doing an online therapy program. And I did it for like, two months or something. But right off the bat, I made this mistake of I just focused on trying to get the guy to like me.

Derek DuChesne  57:26  
Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  57:27  
And I wasn't telling them anything like I remember.. at you know, one point thinking like, Okay, I need to like talk to somebody about stuff. I want some guidance here. And then I sign up for it. And I'm like, I'm not talking to him.

Derek DuChesne  57:41  
Yeah like, I'm not telling him the dark, dark things that are running through my head. I'm not I'm not crazy. I don't even think I'm crazy. Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  57:50  
Exactly. And so I hear more about psychedelic therapy. I'm like, oh, okay, boom, like, I can just go to the jungle drinks and nasty tasting stuff go through the terrible or terrifying, scary experience, and be healed, because that's kind of like the narrative that we hear.

Derek DuChesne  58:07  
Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  58:08  
And what I'm realizing like, in the last couple of months, is, you're still going to have to face this, Danny. At some point, you'd have to talk about the things. So my own thought thinking about all this is like, what I would like to get out of ketamine personally, is to break away some of that shell so that I could even get close to where I'm in a position to do this work that we speak of needing to be done, right? I'm hoping I can get enough comfort with these thoughts I have, so that I can say them out loud, to another human. But that's all to say like, it's not a magic pill. It's a tool in the arsenal, and it gets us a little bit closer. That being said, I'm curious what your perspective is on. Like, we're starting to have this broad toolset of psychedelic or plant medicines that can be used to help us approach our mental health and even our optimization in life. Some are, like better suited for things than others. I'm curious what your perspective is like what is ketamine ideally suited for? What would be the things that somebody might be going through that would make them a really strong candidate for ketamine over something else? And once kind of let you take it from there. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. 

Derek DuChesne  59:37  
Well, Danny I want to unpack before we jump into that? 

Danny Mulvihill  59:41  
Okay, sure 

Derek DuChesne  59:41  
I wanna unpack, you know, what, what you said before because I think it's I think it's very powerful and, you know, I know that you have just started on your journey and haven't had, had the experience yet, you know, with with the medicine, but, you know, as you're going through the journey, you know, it is critical after your sessions to take -- because the integration is everything, right? How do we take what we learn through these altered states of consciousness, and then what we experience are the new epiphanies or aha moments or shifts and perspectives that come up, and how do we have A, remember those because a lot of times, you know, day after a couple days later, I have no idea what happened. So, after the sessions, and making sure that, you know, writing those things down, and, and, you know, if you're not comfortable writing those things down, just using a voice, your voice recorder on your phone, and I, you know, I feel you for when you're like, I don't know how to say these things that are running through my head to somebody else, you know, and I, and I feel like a lot of people feel feel the same way. And so something that I found that helped me was first is saying them out loud, to myself. And, and to be nice, doesn't have to be on like, after your session. But, you know, days after just saying these things out loud to yourself, and, you know, it can be shocking, you know, at first, and it's hard to do. But once you've, you know, you've got it out there and get over that hump, like the first thing we have to do is confront these thoughts and emotions and feelings. And then, you know, we can, we can start to, like you said, break out of that shell and process and get through it. And you know, and that's a very common feeling. And I know that like a lot of times with my own mental health journey, we think that nobody understands what we're going through, and nobody can, nobody can relate to what we're going through, or this isn't normal. And let me tell you, after going through and being a part of so many incredible people's healing journeys, it's that we're all going through something right, we are all facing these internal battles, and these internal shadows and demons, we've all got these things that.. you know, that aren't brought to the surface and there's be here you'll find a lot of power. And once, once you get through that hump, you know, personally and me the least that's, that's my experience. And that's what I've seen is that

Danny Mulvihill  59:51  
Yeah, your idea that say it out loud, even to myself was actually.. that's brilliant. Because even that feels a little scary, but I'm like, but I could do that. Like I could take

Derek DuChesne  1:02:45  
Yeah, start there.

Danny Mulvihill  1:02:46  
A walk outside in the forest where nobody else can hear me. And I could practice saying the things there

Derek DuChesne  1:02:52  
Yeah, and just 

Danny Mulvihill  1:02:54  
So thanks for sharing. 

Derek DuChesne  1:02:55  
Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. That's something that.. that, that you've been even circling. Back to the previous question, the future, it was the future of different types of psychedelic medicines and what they're most, what I think are they're most applicable to coming from that misses a lot of just peripheral. And I've done an incredible amount of studying and obviously been very fortunate to be around a lot of incredible researchers, but from what I've seen, and obviously taking my own personal journey into account, if somebody is struggling with suicidal ideation, or somebody you know, or friend, relative, anybody who's attempted suicide. Please, please explore this type of treatment.

Danny Mulvihill  1:03:54  
Ketamine

Derek DuChesne  1:03:54  
Yeah, for sorry, ketamine. For depression, and like, everybody's different, but I think that as far as like having the most impact on a global scale, and then ketamine is going to have.. have that impact because of, you know, it's on the World Health Organization's list of essential medicines. It's in, you know, almost every hospital globally successful, you know, all around the world, not yet for mental health in most countries like it is here, but it's, but it's getting there as the education or medical bodies accept this as a mental health treatment. For anxiety, we've seen a tremendous amount of people having success and a lot of great, very powerful feedback with with treating anxiety. PTSD, I think MDMA is a better fit, not saying there's not benefits or things like psilocybin or things like ketamine because I can't condone the use of drugs that aren't legal in the United States. But what studies show and what research shows and from being in the environments around people that are going through these treatments and clinical trials, I believe MDMA is a game changer for for PTSD. The studies are absolutely mind blowing of people that are.. aren't functioning in life or society, because of their, their PTSD and their trauma, and how overshadows and every aspect of their life and going through the program, the MDMA maps program, and even like the underground organizations that like some of the nonprofits out there that work with veterans, that do these types of treatments, and, and seeing how quickly and how rapidly and how effectively, MDMA treats it very excited for, for legal guidance, and very, very excited to be able to help people with that, because you look at our it's, it's our soldiers, right? It's our veterans, people that have

Danny Mulvihill  1:06:12  
Yeah

Derek DuChesne  1:06:13  
Given up -- dedicated their life to helping this country and whether our political, whatever our political stance is, these are people that went to fight for our country, and they come back, and the care is, you know, or the lack thereof of care, and availability to get treatments. My cousin was in Iraq, and came back completely, completely different person. And still, to this day, doesn't own a cell phone. And he was like, the most social 

Danny Mulvihill  1:06:44  
Wow

Derek DuChesne  1:06:45  
Like I always looked up to him as a kid. And I came back completely different person. And we lived in northern Wisconsin, the closest VA hospitals in Milwaukee about three and a half hours away. And so having to

Danny Mulvihill  1:06:55  
Oh, wow

Derek DuChesne  1:06:55  
Go three and a half hours to any type of treatment lost hearing one side of his ear. And yeah, the veteran communities incredibly under underserved in the medical community. So I'm really excited for Yeah, for MDMA to be available for, for that community. Anyway, for facing calm. And I think that, you know, this is my theory on MDMA is that it allows us to like we're overflowing with with serotonin, we're overflowing with, with love, and being able to have conversations about those traumatic things, and unspeakable things, I think little things in our life, like coming and going to revisit those things. But with those, those feelings of the MDMA, what it's doing, or how it's making us feel, I think that that allows them to bring it to the surface and process it and a lot less dangerous or harmful way. And that's my theory, in what's..

Danny Mulvihill  1:08:08  
I mean, I think it's founded on like, the science because what I've also learned about it is, so like, say we had a maybe not as traumatic as like combat trauma experience, but like a car wreck, for example. Then when we sleep, and we dream about it, apparently, like we think that dreams play a large role in desensitizing, like cuts, kind of sanding the edges off of traumatic events, so that we can have the memory but not the emotional impact. And PTSD tends to be when the event is just overly stimulating. And when we sleep, we don't get that effect. Like it's just some filter in there is broken, the process doesn't work. And psychedelics are able to recreate that environment where we can have a memory but like have a little bit of a disconnection between, like the emotional response to it. So that we can like begin to heal and like carve the edges off and make it a little less sharp and, like terrifying, really. So I think that you're right in MDMA, specifically having huge potential. That does make me think about Ibogaine being used to treat PTSD as well have you had much come across this at all? Or have any.. 

Derek DuChesne  1:09:33  
Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for bringing up Ibogaine. I personally have have had friends, like a friend that is a professional athlete and got injured addicted to opiates turned into heroin. And 

Danny Mulvihill  1:09:51  
Wow

Derek DuChesne  1:09:51  
Was in and out of rehabs for years asked to, you know, obviously career family, friends, and went to a center on the The border of San Diego, new Tijuana and did Ibogaine treatment once and then came back and you know what has.. he did his Ibogaine treatment once and hasn't touched opiates or drugs since and

Danny Mulvihill  1:10:19  
Isn't that astonishing? 

Derek DuChesne  1:10:20  
Especially when you look at the opioid epidemic and the entire you know, there's entire cities and states, you know entire communities that have been destroyed by, by opioids and people making that very natural progression from getting hooked after a surgery, after an injury, or, you know, whatever medical condition that led him to that prescription and then having that taken away without safely weaning them off of it, and then then that turns into going down a much heavier, much more dangerous path. And when there is something that works and is effective, and you know, that.. and it's illegal in the United States then that leads people to doing it illegally and like, Ibogaine, especially, that all these molecules like and psychedelics are seeing 1000 Plus molecules, right? But MDMA, ketamine, Ibogaine, psilocybin, DMT, LSD, like these all have specific things that you know that can be incredibly beneficial for but these are all powerful substances and they are all can be dangerous substances. And and I also know somebody that illegally was doing -- got an Ibogaine treatment, and the person.. there just wasn't proper medical guidance there and they passed away. And that was in the United States. So in Ibogaine for PTSD and, and, you know, it's a much more we were looking at the comparisons between these different things and what they what they do, like ketamine is a very gentle psychedelic, right, it's go, you know, start like really, you know, with like, similar to the at home model, like in office, it's a much deeper experience initially, because a lot more clinical oversight, but you can start with a kind of a deep meditation, and then you know, work your way up to having those very deep therapeutic dosages and experiences, but it's still it's a 45 to 90 minute experience. And then, a couple hours later, you're back to your baseline. With things like LSD, Ibogaine, Ayahuasca, Iboga, psychedelics can be just as harmful as they are therapeutic. And then 

Danny Mulvihill  1:13:01  
If not used with care.

Derek DuChesne  1:13:01  
Yes, if not done properly and done thoughtfully. And don't get me wrong. There's a massive underground shaman community of people that are doing this type of thing. And I'm not knocking that community. But I am heavily, heavily advocating for legal pathways. So if there's something that somebody's exploring, that whether it's an Ayahuasca treatment, or an Ibogaine treatment, or DMT, I would recommend instead of, you know, we have everything challenges with supply chain, the quality of the medicine, you know, fentanyl is everywhere, and everything right now, clinical oversight, so I'd recommend if you are interested in exploring these things, going to a country that can legally treat you with these things, so you do have that clinical oversight. Because, you know, there's as healthy as we may be, you're unhealthy as we may be. There's a lot of variables and these substances, you know, can.. if you have an undiagnosed heart condition, right, if we have other medications that.. that we may be on that can be very dangerous interaction with these other things. So I, you know, there's been shamans and different types of psychedelics and healing, you know, across the world for since probably the beginning of mankind. And I think that's incredible. But I would not recommend to any friend, family colleagues, loved one and anybody, if you are exploring, you know, these aren't things to be taken lightly. You know, these are very powerful things, and there is a tremendous amount of potential, when done properly. And dosage, dosage is, you know, the most one of the most important things with with psychedelics and similar to you know, whether it's cannabis or alcohol or you know anything else that's mind altering, you know, it's like you take.. if somebody has a glass of wine, you know, that's okay. Right? If you have an entire bottle of tequila, not so much. When the cannabis market was, you know, coming to, you know, emerging, the, you know, somebody eats an entire chocolate -- cannabis edible chocolate bar, you know, you could be in a hospital for a weekend, you know, freaking out losing your mind. It's, you know, a lot of times the, the dosage is, is something that can go wrong. If not, you know, having that, that clinical oversight and things like you know, your blood pressure, your medical history, your medications, and going into it as safely and thoughtfully as possible.

Danny Mulvihill  1:16:06  
On that topic, what do you suspect are a couple of the key next steps that we need to take to get more psychedelics into a legal framework in the United States?

Derek DuChesne  1:16:20  
Well, there's a lot of really incredible biotech companies that are emerging newer companies that have raised a lot of capital that are going through right now there's DMT is in like two companies, or phase four clinical trials with DMT. Psilocybin for depression. for MDD. And I believe there's one for.. its -- part has psilocybin in it as microdose, for weight loss and for obesity. There's phase four clinical trials happening right now with LSD. And me coming in into this space at first ketamine, which is a dirty word to me, right? Like, that just doesn't sound so it doesn't sound good. And it doesn't sound like planning, it doesn't sound like feeling it sounds like, like, sounds like a doctor is trying to drug me up with something that's gonna make me worse. I mean, mean

Danny Mulvihill  1:17:15  
Yeah

Derek DuChesne  1:17:15  
Mean, as in the word Ketamine to be tweaking. But looking at LSD was also something prior to having the education understanding that, you know, the, it's called acid, right, that doesn't sound healthy for your brain, for the data, and the studies that are coming out with LSD for Alzheimer's and dementia are tremendous, and it's really, really incredible. Especially looking at, especially looking at the future. And all of these people over the last 20, 30 years that have been over prescribed all these different types of pharmaceuticals. But the legal framework, and we're seeing clinical trials at the final stages for LSD, DMT, I don't think Ibogaine is in stage three, depression, or psilocybin has, for me, MDD for depression, accompanies pretty close to the finish line of a kind of psilocybin analog, where it's a lot shorter of a lot of time. And so there's the legal framework to get these things, you know, across the finish line and make them more accessible is, you know, unfortunate that it's a very, you know, it's a pay to play kind of kind of a world that we have, right? So it's millions and millions and millions of dollars in clinical trials and millions of dollars and going into the regulatory bodies. And it's a lot of times, you know, in the biotech space, it's whoever has the most, the most money, you know, kind of.. kind of, kind of wins, right? So.

Danny Mulvihill  1:18:56  
So I have a question there, like you just kind of sparked something a little out of left field, but so talking about the cost to actually run clinical trials that are required to get FDA approval for these types of for any medication, is it.. so typically, that's funded by say, the pharmaceutical company, they'll put up the money for the study, to demonstrate the safety and efficacy of the substance? Right. So what popped in my mind, so like, in my day job, I work in web three and like for a company that does NFT stuff. And I'm curious, like, the idea that's in my head is like, How can I merge the podcast and what I do like, you know, the rest of my time, and I see this massive potential for utility NFTS, that can be used to almost like, fundraise and Bootstrap for something to do with psychedelic medication. So if the money is raised, you know, say you sell 10,000 NFT's for $10,000 Each and now do you have $100 million

Derek DuChesne  1:19:57  
Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  1:19:59  
Can And you can really like the people fund these studies and like you, we'd still need somebody leading the charge and like, there's a ton of orchestration. But like, if, if we solve the money problem, do you think that would be like, a big, big step to pushing it through?

Derek DuChesne  1:20:17  
I think the NFT and kind of crowdfunding and making the funds more accessible with definitely accelerates. Or they definitely broaden the scope of companies and the people that are able to bring these types of things to market, it's the money is the biggest, definitely the biggest hurdle because with the capital, and then, then you can hire the best researchers, you can you can build the build the right teams and get these things across the finish line, fortunately, or unfortunately, which, depending on which way you look at it, but a lot of these.. so Johnson and Johnson did Spravato, right, and Janssen. So they really, that was like the first major domino, especially if we're meant to treat mental health with ketamine as a pseudo psychedelic, and in treating mental health and FDA approved an insurance covered and accessible way, right. And this opened up the conversation, like massive ripple effects, you know, throughout not just the medical community, but as patients like wait, there's an alternative to what we've been taking, right. And, and then looking at all these companies, like a Thai Life Sciences and maps and maps is nonprofit, right? So that's all funded by donations. And they've been doing this for a long time, over 30 years. And they're, you know, they're at the finish line for MDMA, which is incredible. But a lot of these companies aren't traditional, the people that are getting these things, very close to the finish line are across the finish line. spravato is the first one, right, but obviously, Janssen and Johnson Johnson know what they're doing. And, you know, a lot of experience in getting these things across the finish line. The other biotech companies for most of these substances, that I'm aware of, these are all startups that have started in the last -- other than maps, within the last five years, most of them in the last two years, but you know, the last five or seven years, and they're all..Yes, incredible organizations that have raised capital from, from people that understand or believe in the power of this type of medicine. So I'm really excited about the future, you know, with all these different molecules and having these as alternative treatments. And like, maybe one day, we were talking about insurance benefits company, right. And they typically would have people in the for the companies that work with this insurance benefits company. At the end, after trying, you know, years of different types of treatments, from TMS, to different types of therapies to all types of different medications, spending 10s of 1000s of dollars, and then recently over the last year or so, trying ketamine therapy, and then not having to do all these other things that are ongoing. So now there's a lot of the conversation and I think that dominoes going to start to fall that Medicaid does cover ketamine infusions, and injections in some states, and or Medicare, Medicaid. And that doesn't cover the at home model yet. But Spravato is covered by most insurance companies in office. And when insurance companies start to see that maybe the pharmaceutical companies are or aren't happy about the people that are getting off their medications, that definitely isn't good for business. But the insurance companies saying hey, like this is actually helping, you know, our bottom line so we don't have to keep keep putting people through treatments aren't effective. So hopefully that'll be enough inspiration for.. for, for these higher level board. Board members. If you're not having the conversation, if you're an insurance company insurance benefits company and you're not having the conversation about alternative medicines or about these different molecules that are coming across through FDA approval, or stuff like one in five medications prescribed off label in the United States. Right. So one in five prescriptions is prescribed off label, what I mean infusions and in office and the at home model that with the lozenges or trophies that is prescribed off label and insurance you know, is not covering for a lot of those. So I think if they're not having the conversation at a board level, they're just being reckless. Like, it's, there's so many people that you know that it can help and it's not for everybody. You know, there's there's definitely not for everybody and people that, you know, in psychedelics aren't for everybody, right? It doesn't matter what the molecule is, but the people that it is right for it, you know, it's really right, really right. And it can save their life or it can change their life and, and I'm not advocating by any means, like, like, we started this off, as ketamine is not the cure all right, it is not the the answer, but it is, is something that can help us unlock our most powerful ability, and that's our ability to self heal, right, you get it

Danny Mulvihill  1:25:59  
Yeah

Derek DuChesne  1:25:59  
You get a paper cut, and you don't really get you wash it out, you don't really think about it. And our body knows that heal itself can unlock that ability in our brains. Our brains are, are incredibly powerful things and we can tap into that. And I think that's something that psychedelics allow us to do.

Danny Mulvihill  1:26:24  
Agreed completely. Man, we've covered a fair amount of grounds. I want to make sure that before we start wrapping things up if there's something you wanted to talk about, like some topics that we should have mentioned that we haven't yet that you want to make sure we cover. And it's okay if no.

Derek DuChesne  1:26:46  
Yeah, yeah, no I'm trying to think of something. So we did, we covered a lot.

Danny Mulvihill  1:26:51  
You know, one question, since we're kind of more in this conversational section is that I was going to ask about is, and you tell me if you want to talk about it or not, but the with some of these like other psychedelics like say, Ibogaine, specifically. There's almost like zero abuse potential, because it's such a harrowing, like long experience. And -- but ketamine is sort of on the other side of that spectrum, where it's like, does it have that abuse potential? So if maybe there was something meaningful to say about like, either, how Better You approaches that or how clients need to think about that kind of thing? 

Derek DuChesne  1:27:30  
Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  1:27:30  
And this is I'm just throwing options out there. 

Derek DuChesne  1:27:32  
Yeah, no absolutely. I know that we've covered a lot of great things about psychedelics and about ketamine, but there's definitely risks. And with things like an at home treatment model, where it's not being done in office and clinically supervised, you know, the alternatives and other treatments? Well, there's definitely there are risks and side effects to those things as well. For, for ketamine, if you have undiagnosed or cardiovascular problems or cardiac issues, if you have, if you have any, currently abusing drugs or other substances or alcohol, if you're currently it can be good for recovery. But if you're currently abusing it, it's not good. If there's also primarily in the recreational side of drugs, where a lot of the data comes from that people that are abusing ketamine, and they're doing it a lot, lot more frequently and higher dosages than what's done clinically. That there's things like bladder cystitis. There's, if you know if it, if it's abused and done, like there was somebody that took a nasal spray, and was prescriptive, prescriptive, or somebody that was prescribed a nasal spray, a couple years ago in Washington that was, you know, massively over prescribed and was, you know, pumping, pumping, pumping, like, daily and daily, I believe, and then had a psychotic breakdown, right? So it's the, the addiction, like when done. And this is why like, we don't prescribe and the FDA put out something as well that we don't prescribe the nasal spray because of that abuse potential. Somebody's like, oh, well, I'm not really feeling how I want to feel. So I'm just gonna keep keep squirting away, with an office and with at home that once a week or maximum twice a week, depending on the severity of their mental health challenges. That once a week or twice a week there is safety data and long term safety data that is.. that that is okay for at least on the once a week side that twice a week isn't meant to be more than more than probably assuming six weeks. And like I said, I'm not the clinician, but if you look at 

Danny Mulvihill  1:28:08  
Sure 

Derek DuChesne  1:28:09  
If you look at addiction for recreational Ketamine, or like we the last thing you want is something similar to the opiates epidemic where now people will prescribe it and now they're hooked right and And Dr. Zand has been treating patients for years with ketamine therapy in office. And the started treating those same patients, as some of the same patients at home, and started to see very, very positive effects with it. And when done once a week, and it's very ceremonial, or kind of like a ritual, as you know, from experience, or you have first the medicine, right, you can't fit more than a few in your mouth. And then you have to hold the saliva in your mouth, it's not the most pleasant experience, and lay down, sleep mask, headphones. And so it's the dosage and frequency of it. So you know, the amount that you're prescribed is also so little, that even if somebody.. even if somebody did abuse it, you're waiting a month, you know, for for the next run, and it's it's such a such a little amount, and it's also exponentially more expensive. You know, if you're gonna go through a clinical program, we haven't come across it unfortunately, as also like our program isn't, you know, with keep you on this for six months or a year, the program is a month or two, then we take a month off. And then from there gauging do we want to do maintenance? Or are we good? Are you feeling better? Some people will come back after six months or so and say, you know, I was feeling good and like falling back into it. Let's do some maintenance. So our program, we got clinicians, clinicians we work with, don't prescribe ketamine regularly to people and it's also.. Yeah, I think I think dose dosage and frequency and, and Dr. Zand's a lot more well suited to go through that because he.. on that side of it. But I'm very familiar with and we have this conversation frequently. But it's definitely the when you look at the safety of Ketamine, as opposed to a lot of these other pharmaceuticals that are used to treat the same things. There's going to be challenges and risks to it. But Ketamine is incredibly safe. And when done, you know, on a once a week protocol, we haven't ran into anybody, or any challenges with with addiction or abuse.

Danny Mulvihill  
Yeah, I appreciate you at least raising that point that it's not all rainbows and puppy dogs. You got to go into this with care just like any other treatment. Alright, so the final question that I want to ask you is actually something I asked almost everybody and that is just, if you could snap your fingers and change one thing and everybody's mind across the whole planet, what would it be and why?

Derek DuChesne  
So the first thing that comes to my mind and is corny or foolish as I feel saying this is that life is beautiful, and appreciate.. like, if it's like, instantly make people appreciate just the fact that we're breathing. Just the fact that we're alive. That alone is such an anomaly, right? And, and we are so incredibly fortunate to be going through this human experience. And while things can get dark and stressful and feel like overwhelming or a lot of bad things can happen in life and that's, you know, that's okay. It's just a part. It's a part of life. But life is you know, there's.. there's love and beauty connection all around all around us. If I can kind of turn that switch off,  or turn that switch on people's heads and make that a part of like, everybody felt connection to themselves and to others. We would live in a much, much different world. 

Danny Mulvihill  
Yeah, yeah. Great answer. I love it, man. So I know that we both gotta run but if you could just tell people how to find you specifically. And Better U the website and we'll wrap this up.

Derek DuChesne  
Absolutely. Danny, thank you so much for having me. Always, always a pleasure, my friend. If you're interested in checking out and learning more about what we do, go to www.betterucare.com And that's not Y O U, it's better, the letter U, and care.com or on Instagram @BetterUCare or Facebook or any of those social channels if you'd like to reach out to me personally and any of this resonated with you or you feel like you're in a really dark place and you feel like you're all alone. We're here for you and I'm here. I know what it's like. I'm here for you. We are here for you. And you can find me and my personal Instagram is at @derekddd and sending everybody love and light, and thank you for allowing me to dive in a little bit with you Danny. And for helping raise awareness around, around these types of.. these types of treatments and appreciating.

Danny Mulvihill  
For sure. Yeah, thanks for building the company that's helped, you know, making it more available and doing the work that you're doing as well. I really, really appreciate your time today and look forward to seeing this whole industry unfold before both of us.

Derek DuChesne  
Absolutely.