Feb. 20, 2023

038 - Caitlin Riley on Ayahuasca, Iboga, and the Psychedelic Society of Texas

038 - Caitlin Riley on Ayahuasca, Iboga, and the Psychedelic Society of Texas

Caitlin joins the podcast in this episode to share her extensive experience with plant medicine including over 50 ayahuasca ceremonies and seven iboga experiences. She first turned to psychedelic medicine seeking relief from chronic undiagnosed...

Caitlin joins the podcast in this episode to share her extensive experience with plant medicine including over 50 ayahuasca ceremonies and seven iboga experiences. She first turned to psychedelic medicine seeking relief from chronic undiagnosed illness. It's not the typical story of one and done, transcendence and healing all in a single session. It's been a long road and hard work. That's not to say progress has not been made though. Armed with deep insight and intermittent physical relief, Caitlin forges onward and shares her story. 

These days her focus remains strongly tied to the psychedelic community. We discuss the Psychedelic Society of Texas which she co-directs as well as the work being done by Decrim ATX which is focused on the deprioritization of sacred plant medicines by law enforcement. 

Transcript

Danny Mulvihill  0:15
Welcome back to another episode of The MindState Podcast. Today, my guest is Caitlin Riley. She is a community builder, people connector, copywriter, storyteller, video producer, and as most relevant to today's topic, a psychedelic advocate, namely being a co director of PsyT, The Psychedelic Society of Texas. So today, we'll cover a wealth of topics. And Caitlin's fun, interesting, has a lot of dry humor, which you'll soon see. So Caitlin, thanks for being here.

Caitlin Riley  0:46  
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Danny Mulvihill  0:48  
Heck, yeah, let's jump right into it. We did have a discovery call a bit ago, and you kind of gave me a little bit of your origin story. So let's do like a quick kind of five minute overview of you know, where your life was, how you discovered psychedelics personally, in terms of using them therapeutically. Go into as much detail as you like there, and then we can kind of start to build this arc to understand more about you and how you ended up at PsyT.

Caitlin Riley  1:14  
Sure, absolutely. It's, it's funny looking back, because I grew up in the 80s. And this sort of war on drugs, you know, it's we're still in the war on drugs, but, you know, Nancy Reagan, Just Say No, that sort of thing. And, you know, we had napkins at school that said, you know, "Say Nope To Dope" and that sort of thing. And I was this super fastidious, like, straight A student, you know, do gooder. And I was always like, oh, drugs are bad, you know, like, I was totally against them, if you will. I mean, I drank in college, I smoked pot, you know, 20 times, if you will. I wasn't like a big, you know, user so to speak. And I, in terms of like recreation, if you will. But what kind of happened was, and I think part of me, too, is a little bit always afraid of losing control. So I think a lot of people come in this world come to psychedelics, from having tried them when they're younger as a teenager, or experimenting or being a little bit free flowing and not caring or being tempted. I just never was tempted that way. And so I never really had experience again, besides drinking and smoking pot. So I think I was always a little bit fearful of them. And I don't think at the time, I think a lot of people didn't, maybe therapists did and the people that were, you know, working with MDMA in the 80s and whatnot before, you know, things went downhill, I guess, with legality. But I don't think people really understood the, you know, the therapeutic aspects that like, you know, the way people did it. I certainly didn't, I had no idea. And so the way that I sort of got into this world was really through my own struggle with chronic illness. I had been throughout my 20s been getting progressively more sick. But I lived in New York City, I was kind of living the fast life, I worked in book publishing. I'd always been really like a perfectionist, people pleasing and working really hard. And partying hard, not in a crazy way. But like going out a couple times a week and pushing myself and.. but I was getting progressively more sick, I'd be really tired all the time. And because it happened so slowly, I didn't -- It wasn't like one day, I was perfect. And the next day I was sick. It happens so slowly that I didn't really know. And I think that happens with a lot of people who have autoimmune illness. It's subtly losing the sense of who you are, and not knowing. And then also, when you have a mindset of like, have this sort of type A, do gooder like, please everyone, kick ass. You're like, well, I have to perform. And so you just kind of push through it. And you gaslight yourself a little bit to like, well, I'm fine. You know, I'm going to be fine. But then it takes a while to figure out that you're not. And so I lived in New York City for 10 years. And then I moved to Austin in 2012. I worked in film and television, as a writer and video producer at HBO. And I left there just because I had to get out of New York City. And again, that was sort of eating me alive. So many ways. It's an amazing city in other ways. It's like soul sucking, so decided to come to Austin, Texas. And that was really liberating and beautiful. I ended up working for Whole Foods Market as a video producer for their online magazine called Dark Rye. And we produced stories about food and health and sustainability. I traveled the world, producing short documentaries about people and lifestyle stories about people doing amazing inspiring things. And it was an amazing job. I mean, I got to go to Peru and France and Panama and do all these cool things.

Danny Mulvihill  4:39  
Heck yeah

Caitlin Riley  4:39  
But yeah, I mean, it was so cool. But again, it was like I was just pushing myself way too hard. And so why I'm bringing this up is that A, felt lucky to have that job and no one would ever leave it. But I was just pushing myself and I was getting progressively more sick and I didn't know what was wrong with me because I, again it was.. It's just so subtle, I was having a lot of respiratory issues, breathing issues. I didn't know they were breathing issues, but it was what it was translating into was muscle weakness in my legs and being weak and tired all the time and fatigued. And I couldn't figure it out. So I started a journey of trying to heal, and trying to figure out what was wrong with me. I mean, I was doing the Paleo diet and whole 30 before anyone knew what it was, and, you know, cutting out different foods and anti inflammatory diets, and, you know, every single kind of holistic and scientific thing you can think of before psychedelics. And the way I sort of, the, the way that this sort of journey into the psychedelic world happened was I was living in Austin, and I was laid off from Whole Foods, which is something I've never been, I've never been laid off before. And that's like, you know, for a lot of people, especially if you're like the type A person who's always succeeded in gotten straight A's, or, you know, it's feels like a failure of the self a little bit, instead of liberation. But I realized quickly after, it was like, the greatest gift that could have been given to me. But our entire team was laid off. So that felt it wasn't just me, but 

It didn't feel so personal.

It didn't feel so personal. And I, of course, I always have to be like, but wait, it just wasn't just me. Like, the whole team was laid off, you know, 

Sure

Which is pathetic, like, it's almost a way of like, not being able to admit failure, but you're like, it wasn't just me, you know, I wasn't fired. But I think it was the universe saying, like, you need to slow down, and you need to change your direction. And I really do think that there's certain ways the universe is directing us, you know, I don't have any evidence for that. I just feel like there's a path that we fall, and there's certain challenges and obstacles that present themselves at the time. So I was laid off, and I decided to take some time off, and I did and really practiced self care. And I did, and then before I was going to jump back into the rat race, I decided to go to Peru to do a Spanish immersion, because that's something that I always wanted to do, to really you know, you can do it during work, but like, they give you two weeks off or something, and I really wanted a month. So I did that. And a friend asked me, So are you going to do ayahuasca and I thought about ayahuasca for maybe, you know, five years prior. But, and I've been thinking about it. But I talked to different people and different doctors, one of my doctors who had actually done it several times and was more of a holistic doctor told me, you're not ready for it, meaning like, with your autoimmune issues.. I'd been, I didn't mention this, but I've been diagnosed with Lyme disease. And that was helpful to know that, especially when I grew up in Maine in New Hampshire, and I'd probably had it for 20 years undiagnosed. But he didn't think I was sort of ready. You know, it had other things. I had my thyroid removed thyroid, cancer, all these things. And he was like, You're not ready. But I think I got to a certain point where I thought it's part of me also thought I tried so many different modalities, you name it from like ozone therapy, to hyperbaric to you know, different breathing techniques to Joe Dispenza conferences like mind and body. But I also got to a point where I thought there's maybe this is something beyond me or beyond the sort of, I need to go deeper. And I'd also done therapy and thinking like, maybe there's something deeper within me that I need to look at. But I also don't know if I even had that much insight, I just knew that it was time to try something. And I think for a lot of people, I'll speak for myself, it was sort of scarier to stay where I was, and then to sort of jump off the proverbial cliff. And again, for someone who had never done psychedelics, it was like, okay.

Danny Mulvihill  8:33  
But it's a bigger cliff.

Caitlin Riley  8:34  
It's a bigger cliff. But also there's part of me too, that was like, I'd tried so much. And I grew up an athlete, and I played ice hockey, and I played soccer. And I was playing all the sports until what had happened, you know, with -- with my health was, I had been getting progressively worse. And then one day in January of 2011, I just my breath sort of.. just started getting worse. And when I would walk up steps and stairs, my legs are weak. And so that became the bigger problem where I was huffing and puffing all the time. And what it felt like was not being able to play sports anymore, and not having a long, slow extended breath. But I was so dissociated from my breath, that I just saw it as my legs and I didn't know, you know, and so, but it's all it's all over breathing and fight or flight and trauma response. And something what I was later diagnosed is something called POTS, which is postural posture, Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome. And it happens a lot with people who have chronic illness Lyme disease, it's, it's the nervous system, basically, it's a dysautonomia, it's the nervous system, not being able to communicate and, you know, thinking there's a threat when there's not. So flash forward to psychedelics I decided to, after I did this Spanish Immersion to go on this Ayahuasca retreat for 10 days in the Amazon place called Ni Wairau, in outside of Iquitos. And I had met a couple in a, in a cafe and Cusco and they spoke really highly of it. And I really wanted to find a place that, you know, I think many people in this movement know how important it is to not just randomly, like, tap a shoulder and find an Ayahuasca guide, you know. It's really important to get referrals and understand the place that you're going to is trusted. And this, so I went for 10 days and jumped off that proverbial cliff. And it was one of the most, you know, amazing experiences of my life to start with, you know, it's like, the first psychedelic ever, and then starting with Ayahuasca, and part of me, I will say too was like, Well, why not? Why the F not? like, I am so desperate that I'll do anything. And so I don't have to go into all the details of it. But I when I did it, something was happening inside of me that I couldn't quite explain. And it wasn't like, Oh, this is going to heal me. But there was a knowingness and a gut feeling of this is the right path to pursue this, because there's something inside of me that needs to come out. And so yeah, I mean, it was pretty treacherous, you know, six ceremonies in those 10 days. But I also knew that

I just had to do it. And so when I was there, the center was very much a spiritual hospital, and it was a place where you diet plants, and it's not just about the Ayahuasca -- it's about this whole pharmacy in the jungle that is, you know, this pharmacy that they've relied on for years and still do this medicine. That's not just the Ayahuasca, you know, so I dieted a plant called Pinon Blanco. And that, I did that for 10 days. And what I realized was I needed to come back and stay longer. So that sort of started a journey of really, I came back to Austin rented out my house and then went back there and was there for another three months. Wow. So in working with ayahuasca and working with different traditional Amazonian plants and dieting them

Danny Mulvihill  12:05  
That's, that's amazing. Let's dig in there a little bit. So, I mean, because even 10 days is on the longer end of a typical retreat, and to have six ceremonies span across that is.. would -- I'd characterize as a pretty intense introduction, for sure. But going into the returning three months, were you able to stay at the retreat? Like location? Okay. 

Caitlin Riley  12:29  
Yeah, so we all lived in Tombos, which are these huts, and you know, a lot, there's definitely there was a wide range of people who are coming and going. There are people who are there, there was one woman who was there for a year. And other people were there for six months or three months, there are some people who were coming for 10 days, and we're you know, dieting very seriously and not part of the diet to is that you use, you don't talk, you don't talk to other people, you totally don't engage with the internet, you don't engage with other people. You don't.. even reading books, you don't want to take in any information. Because what you want to do is get your downloads from the plants and get and sort of receive what they are offering you. And I remember when I first came the first 10 days, there were some people who wouldn't look me in the eye and Burt would walk by when looked me in the eye and even the main shaman, Ricardo Amoringo when you meet with him, he doesn't look you in the eye. And a lot of that is an energetic gesture. Because if the people who are coming for just a short period of time, they're called pasajeros, or passengers, and they're kind of the short, you know, short lived people, and energetically, he can't really absorb all of that -- that's coming off of people. So I remember viewing it initially as a threat. And like, that's rude, you know? Sure. But it's a coping mechanism. And it's a encouraged coping mechanism to do that. So when I went back the second time, I initially honestly, I was only going to stay for six weeks or eight weeks or something, and then I extended it to almost is a little shorter, three months. And, you know, so I was a little bit halfway in and halfway out. But you are encouraged not to, not to talk to people. And it's hard, right in our modern culture to do that.

Danny Mulvihill  14:16  
Oh, yeah, we're so conditioned to, you know, give people our respect and make them feel comfortable. Or at least I am. I know, I go out of my way, sometimes to try to be nice to people.

Caitlin Riley  14:25  
Totally. And it seems like the social aspect of being able to connect with someone is actually like a really good thing. Right? 

Danny Mulvihill  14:30  
Yeah. 

Caitlin Riley  14:31  
And it's like, in this case, it was. It was all about being separate, but you know, so it was a little bit of both. For me, I would say I wasn't totally in isolation because of how I had started but I dieted two different plants, Pinon Blanco, and Chiric Sanango. And, you know, there were ceremonies four days a week, and then we were you know, drinking these plants. And a lot of times too, what you know, people may or may not know is that the connection to the plant is energetic, so you oftentimes you drink the plant, you drink a juice made out of the plant, and then you might do a flower bath. And some, some plants are more baths and they are drinking them. But you are energetically connected to that plant. And when you are -- start your diet, the shaman begins your diet, and he sings to you, and he sings, you know icaro about that connection. And then later, he will close the diet, and it is his responsibility to help you close the diet. And just because you stopped drinking the plant, you might I mean, after what I didn't -- get sort of understand from an intellectual part is that I was, you know, drinking this plant. And then after a certain point, they're like, Okay, you can stop, you're actually connected to the plant. And I'm like, What do you mean, I don't need to drink it anymore. And they're like, No, you don't or you're already connected to it. The medicine is in you.

Danny Mulvihill  15:49  
So like, even later on follow up ceremonies. They're like, No, no, you're

Caitlin Riley  15:53  
Yeah, it was like the tail end a few weeks or something. And they're like, you don't need to drink anymore. You're connected to it. And it's, it's yeah, it's a hard thing to kind of wrap your head around when we think of Robitussin. Or think of a medicine where you're like physically consuming it

Danny Mulvihill  16:05  
Yeah

Caitlin Riley  16:05  
Versus energetically being aligned with it, you know? 

Danny Mulvihill  16:08  
Yeah. 

Caitlin Riley  16:10  
But yeah, it was a really powerful time. What I will say, to be honest, is there were so many realizations I had about myself, but a lot of them didn't really happen towards the end. And the middle part was seeing a lot of blackness, a lot of darkness. I think a lot of us, and I'll speak for myself want to see something, you know, psychedelics are so visual. And, and we're also told, like, these are going to change your life. And you're going to have realizations, and we think you know, that you're going to get those downloads immediately. But for me, it was, you know, ceremony after ceremony, because there were 36 Total in that, in that second time period, you know, maybe a little bit more. I can't remember. But there were some that were just blackness. And I think that was really difficult at the time because I was so desperate to heal that I wanted to be like, well, where's the healing? where's the healing? And a lot of the medicine I think, is like in that those really dark moments of not knowing what is happening, and actually being with it, and then being with that struggle. 

Danny Mulvihill  17:13  
Yeah

Caitlin Riley  17:14  
And then also, knowing that the medicine isn't just the ceremony, it's the stuff in between, and how you integrate it, and how you deal with it. And, you know, I also remember being on the phone with AT&T trying to get my calling plan, like sorted out, and, um, it's breaking up, you're in the jungle, and I'm yelling at them. I'm not proud of it. But I remember just being so frustrated, and I was like, Oh, this is the medicine, like, anger is coming out. And you know what I mean? But, but yeah, I mean, I'd say overall, like, I didn't heal myself on a physical level with that particular medicine. But it did allow me to see myself in a whole different light. And I would say it was really towards the end of those.. those several weeks there, where I had some of the most powerful ceremonies, one of which was realizing that I was identifying as as sick, as a sick person. And it was, you know, a story that I've been telling myself an identity that I created, and that I had made myself sick. I mean, I didn't make myself sick, but I was perpetuating an identity of sickness, and that I was my own medicine, and that I had to change that narrative to move forward and heal. And I, you know, there was a doctor there who I really respect and worked with, but I remember thinking, like, I'll talk to him, and he'll be the one to heal me and tell me what to do. And I realized, no, that's not it, like, it's me. And so there were a lot of really magical moments like that. And then a really -- a lot of really terrifying experiences with Ayahuasca, of being in total darkness or throwing up snakes or you know, just insane shit, to be honest. But a lot of beautiful stuff, too.

Danny Mulvihill  18:52  
Man, a few threads to pick up there. One, just to help, maybe people listening that don't have as much awareness of what an Ayahuasca ceremony and the everything that surrounds it is about. You use this phrase, the plants that I dieted, and you hear this phrase like dieta, and can you, from your perspective, kind of go into that a little bit like what that means? 

Caitlin Riley  19:14  
Sure, sure. So again, I sort of said this, but maybe I said it fairly quickly, but within the traditional Amazonian plant medicine, Ayahuasca is a master plant and master plants in, in a lot of different cultures, or, you know, Ayahuasca, Iboga these, these bigger, like really moving big time, big, experience plants. But there's this plethora, and I say plethora, we mean thousands, hundreds of thous-- I don't even know how many right

Sure

This, the Amazon, I mean, how many species are there? And for thousands of years this, these indigenous cultures have connected with these plants and figured out which ones work for which. And so, these shamans are really much like pharmacists of the jungle, right? And so when you come and you meet with a shaman, you will talk about what you're struggling with and what you're intensions are, and then they will say, okay, aside from the ayahuasca experiences, I think this is a good plant for you. You know, I'm, maybe I'm dealing.. so and so is saying, maybe I'm dealing with rheumatoid arthritis, or maybe I'm dealing with an idiopathic cough, I'm dealing trauma when I was abused when I was younger, I mean, there's so many facets, and there's things that come together. And the shaman is actually thinking like, Okay, I think this plant would be best for you or this plant Chiric Sanango, the one that I did second was a plant that was really known for neurological things and pain and symptoms like that. And so that was one of the things that came up. And so people do tobacco diets, for instance, they do rose water, Rose diets, you know, they do coca diets, coca leaf diets. For me, the first one, like I said, was a plant called Pinon Blanco. And that is more of a lighter want to open up the lightness inside of you. And you, there's a lot of different facets of it. But you, if I remember correctly, we were drinking the plant, I think it was four days a week, but it might have been more on the days that we weren't necessarily diet, you know, taking the ayahuasca and for me, it was a little juice. And the first one was, you know, oh, this is like a juice bar in Austin or something, you know, it wasn't, it was like a little shot, you know

Sure

You take it. And I remember, you know, being there and taking a drink and trying to have an intention when I drank it too of like, you know, being there with it and thinking that. But a lot of it's really subtle, because, you know, we're so used to thinking, Okay, I'm going to take this, and then it's going to have this pharmacological effect immediately. And what it was more was like the slow, subtle downloads, where you really need to connect with a plant, and then see what happens. And that's part of it, why you why you take away all the other distractions so that you can receive the download for the plants, because otherwise it's clouding it. So that's why they really encourage you, even if you're only there for 10 days to not cloud yourself with, you know, the internet or, you know, different books. I mean, you can reflect by write or doing art, but and so it really is an energetic connection with it. And it, it happens within ceremony too where they open the diet, and then close it. And what it is fascinating too, is how it affects your dreams. My dreams were so much more intense over these, you know, 12 weeks. I'd have some dreams that would I know, a lot of people do have recurring dreams. I don't as much, but I would have dreams while I was dieting, the plant that then the dream would continue in the ayahuasca ceremony. So it was just opening up the subconscious in ways that I didn't really know, you know.

Danny Mulvihill  22:40  
Wow

Caitlin Riley  22:41  
So yeah, I mean, it's really, I think it's fascinating. I'm not an expert, I wish I knew more. And I've read out so much about it, and how my own experiences, but I can't go into all the different plants, from Asana to all these different things. But yeah

Danny Mulvihill  22:56  
That's man, quite an experience. I'm curious, just like from a practical level, for somebody who feels compelled to, or drawn to make that level of commitment. What are the like, how does one go about it? What are the costs associated with a three month retreat versus 10 days, like, just like really kind of top level American stuff.

Caitlin Riley  23:19  
And this was, this was 2017. So I'm sure costs have gone up.

Danny Mulvihill  23:24  
Of course.

Caitlin Riley  23:25  
But, you know, I think when I did it initially, it was probably like $1,000, or 1200, or something like that, you know, I was, you know, renting out my house in Austin. So at the time, I was like, okay, and living for not that much, not to make excuses for it. But at the time that worked out. And then I want to say probably sustained for that much time was $5,000 or, you know, something like that?

Danny Mulvihill  23:49  
Yeah

Caitlin Riley  23:49  
I don't remember exactly, to be honest. I mean, so it's not cheap, but it's probably more expensive now, to be honest. And it's tough, right? It's like you also are so desperate to heal. And that's what one of the things that was really difficult for me, to be honest, is that you almost have to just surrender. One of the big lessons, I think, for many people in the psychedelic experience is you can have an intention, and you have to just let go and surrender. But when you are trying to base it on, well, I'm paying this money and I need to heal. It's just, it's already so bad. You know, you're already like creating this need and this urgency and.. you know?

Danny Mulvihill  24:24  
Yeah. 

Caitlin Riley  24:25  
But in terms of going about it, I mean, there's a lot of different retreat centers for me, I really did my homework, and I happened to meet a really wonderful couple at the time. And it was sort of, I think, a lot of things in life or serendipity. And so it worked out that way. You know

Danny Mulvihill  24:39  
Yeah, that sounds awesome that it worked out while you were there and it all came together for you. Yeah. After, like, let's say post the three months. Where are things looking at in terms of your physical health and do you -- did you feel at that point, like you had gotten some of the physical healing you're after or that like what was your mindset at that point?

Caitlin Riley  24:59  
I hadn't gotten the physical healing. I think I was pretty confused still about that. But there were a lot of really powerful things that happened. I mean, I had my second to last Ayahuasca journey. I won't go into all of it, but my heart totally opened. And one of the things that they also teach you one of the women who've co founded the Center, taught people to be your own Shaman. And while the shaman is working with you to actually do your own work on yourself and use metaphorical tools to help clear what you're trying to clear. So for me, I was like excavating my own heart. And, you know, I could feel the boulders breaking and it is metaphorical. It is visual. And so, you know, that happened. And I remember at the time, like, it's so stupid, people might not get this reference. But this do you ever remember Elizabeth Smart, the woman that was kidnapped?

Danny Mulvihill  25:49  
Gosh, she rings a bell. But..

Caitlin Riley  25:50  
It was a huge news story in like the early 2000s, or maybe late 90s, no, early 2000s. I think she was like, Mormon girl that was kidnapped. Anyway, everyone, she was kidnapped. And then she was later found like, five years later, seven years later, I'm not getting it, right. But everybody wanted the news exclusive on her. The Today Show. The point I'm getting to is like all the major networks wanted the news exclusive on this girl that been trapped underground for so long. And I remember when I had this Ayahuasca journey inside, like in the story, the narrative like The Today Show wanted to interview my heart because it had been trapped so long. And that was like the funny stupid shit that came up. But it was just it was metaphorically gold, but it was just kind of funny. So I had these, this amazing growth. And like I said, this realization of like I am, you know, my own medicine, I am in control of, of this. And these ideas of gratitude and how to move forward. But physically, I didn't feel any different. And that was really a struggle. But I continued my journey, and I was traveling through South America, and I was working in different, you know, or volunteering in different kinds of permaculture areas, living in Buenos Aires, living in Chile, different kinds of group volunteer experiences that were, you know, transformational in the sense of like, getting a group of people together, where we were doing, you know, there were there were medicine retreats, but there were, you know, building gardens and things like that. So I did that for a while. I traveled all through South America, I kept thinking about different medicines that I might.. more medicines I wanted to try. I walked the Camino de Santiago, which is we won't go into all of that. But that was something that I thought it's a, it's a path in France and Spain or all over Europe, but majority of it is in Spain. And it's very much a pilgrimage, of walking to reach to Santiago de Compostela. This, this town, and there's a whole storied history behind it, but I thought, okay, if I can walk then I'll maybe I'll get better if I can teach my brain through biofeedback, that I'll be better. And that didn't happen either. And that but that was an amazing experience and, and brought a lot of growth. And then I was called to work with iboga, the plant iboga. And that was the medicine that really -- extremely difficult but that was the medicine that gave me relief, not permanently, but showed me that I could heal. And again, I didn't, what I knew about it was from Ibogaine, and what I knew about it was from listening to podcasts, you know, 2014-15, and how most of the time it was used for substance misuse, and for sort of scrubbing the opioid receptors clean. And I.. So I thought, well, this isn't for me. And so it took a while, but something about it. It's like, normally, you would think, well, what called you to it? because I wouldn't say like, I couldn't say ever like, there was this thing, it was that thing, but I just felt called to and I had worked with Ayahuasca so much, even after those three months in the jungle. I was in Nicaragua, I was in different places. I had worked with it, you know, in total, like 50 plus times, and I always have all these insights when I take it like you learn new things, or you realize that you forget what you learned, and you need to learn it again. But, but I just call it felt called to work with iboga and and so I did, I went to a retreat center in Costa Rica. And not knowing really, I knew a lot about it, but I didn't know how I'd react to it or anything. And, you know, I had the short version of what I'll say about it is that there were two ceremonies over a week, and I knew it'd be difficult. I mean..

Danny Mulvihill  29:25  
Two iboga ceremonies?

Caitlin Riley  29:26  
Yeah. 

Danny Mulvihill  29:26  
Wow. You just really go for the top of the chain. 

Caitlin Riley  29:29  
I'm like a

Danny Mulvihill  29:30  
Geez

Sadist a little bit, a masochist. Sorry. You know, I've done some crazy things that are very masochistic. I also think too, like one of the things I can mention later is that like, I think a lot of people, myself included, think that you have to suffer to heal. And that's

Caitlin Riley  29:47  
One of the lessons that..

Danny Mulvihill  29:48  
I've definitely subscribed to that belief.

Caitlin Riley  29:50  
Yeah. And that's one of the things I've realized now, we can get to is that I don't have to.. have to suffer. I'm trying to tell myself that but with iboga I mean, it is for me, it was incredibly painful and difficult. And I don't think it's easy for anyone. I mean, it's a 36 hour journey. There's a lot involved in it. And especially when you are compromised in a health perspective, there's a lot that can happen in your body that it's, it's trying to recalibrate your body. So you're going throughout utter hell as it does that. But it's very much a mind medicine. And it the, the quick and dirty version is that, you know, after seeing a lot of visions, and it blasts open your third eye, and you can sometimes most of the time, you -- it creates a projection, almost like a film screen. 

Danny Mulvihill  30:36  
I've heard this so much. That's so interesting. 

Caitlin Riley  30:38  
Like, I've never actually had a lucid dream, and I really would like to, but people compare it to lucid dreams where you're awake, but you're half, you're knowing that you're dreaming. But it actually blasts open your third eye for me, it would create this purple light, which I think a lot of people equate with a crown chakra. And it would slowly for like an ink dot bleed open. And all of a sudden, it's like a Kodak vintage 1960s filmstrip. And you see these images, and you don't know what you're like, What am I seeing? And you start squinting, you look fast, you look closer, and then it disappears. And they tell you like, don't try too hard to search for it because it's going to disappear. But some of it is stuff that happened to you, you see versions of yourself when you were younger, like your brain is projecting a younger version of yourself and you see it, you might see something that happened to you, you might see things that didn't happen to you, but are kind of like things that you might have passed a billboard when you were three and it got lodged in your brain, you oftentimes see fears that get manifested as images, you see a lot of darkness. And they often say that first ceremony is a detox. So some of those images might not even actually be real, but it's like projections that your brain is releasing. And so that happened and, and then I had realized that I had kind of with utter clarity that I talked trash to myself my entire life and that my viewpoint on life was a half empty one was a glass that was totally half empty. And everything was from that lower perspective instead of believing in abundance and that, that things started with the positive and then, you know, instead of assuming that everything was the negative, and then I would never talk that way to a friend. I would never talk that way to an enemy and yet I was talking that way to myself the whole life. So that was a huge realization and then I burped like a dragon for about three hours straight, like..

Danny Mulvihill  32:29  
Fire and everything?

Caitlin Riley  32:30  
Yeah, basically. I mean, it was.. it was instead of vomiting, it was burping up air. And, and there's a reason I think all that happened. What I know now is that because of what's called POTS, Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome, it's a, it's a dysautonomia, and that involves the vagus nerve and what's regulating your nervous system. And I think iboga and I've talked with research about this through my job and everything, like when I'm doing my own work to like, ask them and a lot of people the understanding, although I don't know if it's proven yet is that it's it's stimulating the vagus nerve. And oftentimes, when you're you're stimulating the vagus nerve, you do Burke, because the vagus nerve is all about the gut, too.

Danny Mulvihill  33:11  
Right

Caitlin Riley  33:12  
So I think it was just it was over, it was really stimulating it. And so everything was coming out. And then I couldn't breathe normally. And my legs went back to normal. And I could not believe it. I was just the next morning I, I was in tears, because I hadn't felt that way in, in 11 years, and I couldn't believe that it happened. But I didn't know why. You know, it's kind of like, you're like, Why did?

Danny Mulvihill  33:33  
How did this work? 

Caitlin Riley  33:34  
Why did it happen? Is it my mind? Is it something physiological? Is it both? And I will say it was pretty tough then because then I might I went into fear mode where I thought, well, it was my mind. I believed I had such a bad attitude, but not bad attitude. But if I believe that I can heal, if I can believe that I'm normal, then.. then this is how it's going to work. And so then I kind of what was what was difficult about it is I was so in shock of what had happened that I was like don't, don't go back to thinking negatively Caitlyn don't go back to -- and then I did. So it's so tough to know what happened. But I would say within three to four days it my symptoms returned. And so it was very frustrating, 

Danny Mulvihill  34:16  
Oh, that's tough. Yeah.

Caitlin Riley  34:16  
Because then you're also like, what just happened? Like, you know what, and at that point, I hadn't been diagnosed with POTS. I hadn't been diagnosed with any of this stuff. I mean, I had knew I had Lyme, but what my symptoms were, I was like, I don't know that this is Lyme disease anymore, like what is happening. And so what I'll say is that I ended up working with iboga that time. Another time a few months later, because I was living in Nicaragua and I went back to the same center and then I decided to go to Africa to be initiated with a group of people. I know I just do crazy things and but I also when I decided after the first night that I did it that I was going to go with them to Africa because they were trying

The Bwiti, right?

to trap.. right, The Bwiti. Yeah. And you know they speak French and Gabon and I speak French And so I thought, Oh, this will be like a great experience, you know, the French is totally different there. I mean..

Danny Mulvihill  35:05  
Oh, yeah it's like trying to speak to a like deep Scottish person or, like what the fuck?

Caitlin Riley  35:10  
Oh, my God and I, I realized by even admitting this and it's like, there's no true French, I mean,

Danny Mulvihill  35:15  
Sure, sure

Caitlin Riley  35:16  
People, the French people will be like, This is the true classic French.

Danny Mulvihill  35:18  
This is the French you're used to and the French other people are used to

Caitlin Riley  35:20  
Right? And in Granite, like I thought there'd be a translator, there was no translator, and I was a translator for the entire group. And it did actually work. But you know, the first night you're having, you know, anyway, well, I don't want to necessarily have to go into all of it. But there, you know, we had an opening ceremony, which lasted 12 hours, and through the night, everyone from the village comes, you're sitting on a concrete block, you're, you know, no one, no one is telling you anything, they're handing you rattles, and you're supposed to take the rattle from them, like, take it, it's an energetic thing, we have to take it, but no one explains to you why they're holding it back, you know

Danny Mulvihill  35:54  
Yeah

Caitlin Riley  35:54  
There's no light and I was like, what, and then they there, it's like through movement and stuff and like gestures that you understand, like, oh, I have to pull it, you know. But it was a really powerful experience, you know, to be there to be in Gabone to be with this group of people. And to see the sort of the more, you know, historical, cultural context of this medicine. And what I'll say with iboga is that every single time I did it, those symptoms, you know, were gone 

Danny Mulvihill  36:20  
That's fascinating.

Caitlin Riley  36:21  
Every single time. And yet, they returned every time. And so I do think without going into the weeds, there's something happening on a physiological level

Danny Mulvihill  36:30  
Sure

Caitlin Riley  36:30  
With that medicine. And while it's really frustrating, it's also for me, the power of that medicine was showing me the power of my mind and how much our minds control, you know, our viewpoint and what we do, and our story and our narrative, like when we're talking a lot about storytelling, like the stories we tell about ourselves about who we are and what we do, you know, and the power of the mind to do that. It's just brutal. But it also showed me that I have the power to heal. 

Danny Mulvihill  36:58  
Yeah

Caitlin Riley  36:59  
And, and that there is a medicine that can do it. And it maybe it's not a long term thing, but that my body can, you know, go back to baseline, it's just a matter of, how do I get it there, you know,

Danny Mulvihill  37:10  
I mean, sometimes it's just a matter like giving yourself a target, and to physically feel like, okay, this, this is a possible state of consciousness and physical well being. It's real. 

Caitlin Riley  37:22  
Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  37:22  
Maybe I can get here again.

Caitlin Riley  37:24  
Totally. And I think it was powerful too. Because sometimes when, you know, I'll speak for myself when I had been gradually getting sick for so long that I didn't actually remember what it felt like to breathe normally. And as I mentioned to you before, I've been so dissociated that I didn't even understand that what was happening was rooted in breath, you know, the nervous system, fight or flight, all that goes back to these autonomic nervous system things. And so for me, it was breath. And so I was over breathing, I do over breathe, and I, I.. it's, it's something that is a setpoint that happened at some point, it happened. 10 years ago. And as a result of that, it just became the new normal and so I forgot what it felt like to breathe like I did when I was younger, to have a long slow breath. And I remember after that first Iboga ceremony of of experiencing that again, and having this -- really this gratitude for breath, you know, something so simple. And remembering what it felt like, you know, and it's so hard because then you become dissociated from it or you haven't had it in a long time. It's like, oh, this is the new normal, you know, but yeah, that understanding that to be able to get back to that is really powerful.

Danny Mulvihill  38:36  
Man, one point of clarification, and I don't know for sure if you know, but is there a clear distinction between say Iboga and Ibogaine like, and if so, can you elaborate on that a bit? 

Caitlin Riley  38:49  
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for asking. So Iboga is the root bark from which Ibogaine is derived and Ibogaine

Danny Mulvihill  38:56  
Okay

Caitlin Riley  38:56  
Technically 

Danny Mulvihill  38:56  
So Ibogaine is like the alkaloid 

Caitlin Riley  38:58  
Ibogaine is one of the alkaloids I think.. I'm gonna I'm gonna mess this up. There's either 12 or 22 or something like that. It's one of the most complex molecules and Ibogaine is one of the alkaloids 

Danny Mulvihill  39:09  
Gotcha 

Caitlin Riley  39:10  
And so what when I worked with you know, and as you may or may not know, and people who are researching you booger Ibogaine most in the, in the community with with sort of more psycho spiritual retreats you'll experience Iboga and then you may take what's called Total alkaloid which is the alkaloids kind of distilled down. Gotcha, it's just the alkaloids in a more medical setting and some of the things that they do with it that's when it is more clinical and you might be you know plugged into an IV or I can't remember how they monitor you or heart rate you know, that sort of thing. It is Ibogaine and it is just Ibogaine and it is a pill and it's, and I'm sure they're in, I don't under -- I don't know, I'm friends with some of them, but I haven't experienced it in that way, but it is a little bit more medicalized and iboga. There is a whole much with Ayahuasca there, and especially in the Bwiti tradition, there is a whole kind of nuance and ritual around that spiritual experience and how the Bwiti look at iboga and the spirit of it and the fire, or the importance of the fire around it, so, but when we were in Africa, during the initiation, it was all root bark. And, I mean, it is

How do you -- do you just, like, chew it up or?

Chew it. And then the night of initiation, one of the things they gave us was was the pure root bark, so it's all root bark, but like, in some cases, they, they shave it off. So it almost looks like woodchips or like if you looked at it from afar, like shredded barbecue, but it's not soft. It's just like,

Danny Mulvihill  40:41  
That ain't pulled pork, buddy. 

Caitlin Riley  40:42  
Yeah. And then, you know, the night of the initiation, I remember they gave us a piece of it and was like ginger root bark, and then you had to chew it. And you think of chewing root in general, like or anyone who's had like, even kava, or it's like kava sounds like magical compared to this. It's like -- tastes like dirt. You know? 

Danny Mulvihill  41:04  
Yeah. 

Caitlin Riley  41:04  
But this has, like a lot of it, you know, have these really acrid you know, taste to them for a reason. There's a defense mechanism built into those plants so that they can, you know, defend against fungus and bacteria and everything. And so, we were chewing this piece of what felt like ginger, you can't chew it. It's like you're trying to masticate something that you're gonna take, like, and I remember being like, Oh, my God. But yeah, I mean, it was a really, it's a beautiful experience to be in that I have so much gratitude. I mean, we don't need to go into this, I ended up getting malaria on the way home. And it was a very difficult experience in many ways, but also really eye opening. And I think with, with these cultures, and with the way that, you know, a quick thing is I had a really difficult back pain at the time. And I was telling the shaman and so he like, sends his little guy out to get something and I was like, Okay, what are they going to do, they go down the road, like three kilometers down the road, and they get this, this stuff from a tree, it's, again, it's root bark, another type of root bark. And then they have me lie down on these, these leaves that kind of look like banana type leaves. And I lie down on it. And it's, I lie down, it's like, I don't know how to describe it, but Icy Hot and I'm on my back. And it's, you know, my back is bare. And it's all of a sudden feels like Tabasco on the body. And my whole body is burning. And I start sweating. And then it turns cold, and then it goes numb.

Danny Mulvihill  42:24  
Yeah

Caitlin Riley  42:24  
And I still to this day, want to figure out what it is. And I asked them and they didn't quite tell me but and then the next day, they gave it to me again. But they were like, We need to wait for it to cool down. And I thought they meant the weather, but it was actually the medicine. And so it wasn't hot that time. And then I did it the third time and it was hot again. And it you know, I cried, you know, like a little baby. Not really, but like kind of like, oh my god, this sucks, you know, and what it was just amazing to see how like, again, as a culture we're so divorced from natural medicine. And these guys are literally going to the pharmacy three, three kilometers down the road to get it from the tree, you know, and it being this numbing agent to help with pain in the back of my back pain, you know, went away for a couple days. So you know,

Danny Mulvihill  43:08  
it's wild. 

Caitlin Riley  43:09  
Yeah. 

Danny Mulvihill  43:09  
Because I mean, there's people with chronic back pain here in advanced Western worlds and can't really find relief from it, you know

Caitlin Riley  43:18  
Totally 

Danny Mulvihill  43:18  
Despite all of our investment 

Caitlin Riley  43:20  
Yeah 

Danny Mulvihill  43:20  
And effort to investigate it. Okay, so we've managed to learn a lot about like, this whole journey that's even more in some ways nuanced, but just drawn out than I expected. So how long since or from when you first drink Ayahuasca? And then you know, you find more retreats, you do.. you find the Iboga retreat, you go to Africa, what kind of timeline are we looking at to, that encompasses what you'd call your, your main stint in all of this?

Caitlin Riley  43:52  
Sure. So, you know, I guess I left in 2017. And then actually, by the end of 2018, is when I finished iboga and, and I moved to Colorado, and I was there for a little bit and and then since then, there's been additional things, you know, my first Ayahuasca retreat in the states which was a great experience, but it had been three years since I'd done that that was last 2021 and different you know, work I've done with mushrooms myself. But yeah, I think that was about two years and then I guess, you know, 2019-20 COVID. And so it's been a slow progression and there have been other ones other different ones, 5-MeO, different things like that. But I would say I will Ayahuasca and Iboga were the most meaningful and the most.. the things that kind of moved me through but again, I was, you know, I traveled through different countries and work with different medicines, San Pedro and like wachuma worked with peyote once, you know, 5-MeO and again it was on this, this path to heal. And then, you know, which led me back into back to Austin. I've lived here before, and I had kind of left in 2017. And I lived in Colorado for a little bit. And I got involved in the advocacy scene there, which as you may know, and people may know, is just really on the forefront, because they were decriminalizing psilocybin in 2019. And I moved right then. Wow. And so there was a big community there. And so I got involved a lot of them and different community aspects of things. And as I may have mentioned, or you did, you know, my background is in video production and writing and storytelling, and so I was helping some of them tell stories around it and producing videos about psychedelics. And I thought, you know, this is really meaningful to me, I want to be part of the movement. I want to be part of the change and the stories and stories are so important for us to, you know, I've always said data changes opinions, it moves science, but like story moves, culture, you know, and having the reason cannabis was a lot of times it made legal in certain areas where people are saying Colorado wasn't because like someone's

Danny Mulvihill  45:57  
Data

Caitlin Riley  45:57  
Necessarily had an experience. Yeah, I mean, sure, it was data, right. 

Danny Mulvihill  46:00  
But I'm saying it's not

Caitlin Riley  46:01  
Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  46:01  
It's like the the anecdotal story of like, the kid who had seizures and doesn't anymore

Caitlin Riley  46:06  
Right 

Danny Mulvihill  46:06  
Everybody sees that, and like okay, what the fuck are we doing?

Caitlin Riley  46:08  
Totally. And what I was gonna say is that it wasn't necessarily someone who had their own experience, a lot of people who voted was because they -- they voted because they, they knew of a loved one who was working with the medicine to heal, and they, they heard experientially, anecdotally from that other person. So I think there's so much power and story, to change culture in that and so I got involved in that and the Colorado area, and really made and still have a lot of great friends there and doing powerful things. And then, when I moved back to Austin, I continued to be like, I want to be in this, this field. And I was working with things with the World Science Festival to produce stories about psychedelics, different videos, we did one about psychedelics and dreaming. And, and, and we produced a video about a cop and MDMA and the power of psychedelics to heal PTSD, but the way that it led to what you refer to as PsyT, which is a Psychedelic Society of Texas, was actually -- I had an Ayahuasca experience in Colorado, which was the first in three years, since I experienced it in Peru and the, the, there were a lot of takeaways, but the two major takeaways were to find a therapist to better integrate, because the importance of integration, I think, you know, I've known this term forever. But I think I wasn't really practicing it, practicing in my own, you know, medicine, if you will. And so, and I hadn't had a therapist before, until since before I left to travel around the world, I thought, I really need to find someone to really integrate this with. Whether that's a therapist or not, but a coach or whatever, but I thought I need to find -- and I found someone amazing. And then the other one was to find community, because I had just moved back to Austin a month ago was to create find community around about plant medicine and psychedelics and Austin because when I lived here, prior to this, I wasn't involved in this community at all, you know, it was just, I didn't.. I mean, I'd heard of Ayahuasca from an NPR, you know, episode or, you know, something like that I didn't really know that much about it. And certainly wasn't involved in the scene very much, very much involved in like food and health and sustainability, but not as much with psychedelics and consciousness. So, there was a meeting for psychedelic kind of like volunteering, you know, for PsyT which is pronounced 'sight' as in eyesight, Psychedelic Society of Texas Psy-T. And like looking for volunteerers, ideas, and because of what I had been doing in Colorado and working with the teams there, I thought, Oh, I'm sure I can offer something. And so we went to this meeting, and they were looking for someone to reinvigorate the Austin Psychedelic Society, which was started in 2017 by a woman named Sarah Gehrke, who was a registered nurse and is still a registered nurse, but is a psychiatric -- I'm gonna get it wrong, the psychiatric mental health practitioner? I'm gonna say that wrong but

Danny Mulvihill  47:03  
Psych Nurse Practicioner?

Caitlin Riley  47:59  
Yeah, psych nurse practitioner.

Danny Mulvihill  48:57  
Okay

Caitlin Riley  49:01  
And she started at really grassroots level. And then it moved to chapters in Houston and San Antonio. And in Dallas.

Danny Mulvihill  49:08  
And Dallas, yeah. 

Caitlin Riley  49:09  
But, you know, COVID had really taken a hit, there was some online and integration circles, which I think people found really powerful during COVID. But we didn't, we couldn't really do in person for year and a half. And so the goal about last -- a year ago, so a year ago from this fall, was to try to kind of start creating events again and bring community back together. And so we've started doing that and we've done that for the past year. And you know, I don't know your demographic, who is from where but like people who are here know that Austin has really become a hub of, of psychedelic community. 

Danny Mulvihill  49:46  
Definitely. 

Caitlin Riley  49:47  
And so that's, that's the goal of that is to nurture community conversation around psychedelics and do so through education and, and connection and harm reduction. And you know, storytelling, whether it's an event or an integration circle, or having expert talks, or having panels and bring people who are Psychonauts who can share their wisdom or learn something new, or people who have never tried anything and want to learn more, who may never try anything and want to learn more, or just support the movement for consciousness, for therapeutic, you know, for healing, for being able to do with your mind what you can do with your minds, you know, how did of liberty? So

Danny Mulvihill  50:33  
Yeah, I mean, well PsyT is killing it, at least in Austin, I can speak. The -- I've been to three or four events now. And so far, every single one, I'm sort of taken aback by like, how solid it is. All the people there, like good turnout, good vibe. A lot of times when you go to these sort of things, you're like, What am I getting myself into, you know, and I'll show up, and I'm like, Oh, damn, like, these people are cool. It's not just a bunch of total super crazy hippie, like "woowoo" people like there's -- there is that, you can definitely find people who are, will embrace that, and I appreciate them. But there's also I guess, quote, unquote, normal people, for lack of a better phrase. And it's just cool to see that merging. And even like the event earlier this week, with the podcast recording, you have, obviously the whole psychedelic community, but the guest was police officer. And so you get the first responder community as well, which, you know, was joked about a few times in the course of the podcast, the two groups can at times feel at odds. And when you can bring them together, and everybody finds this common ground, it's like, this is pretty dang cool. And by doing this, like, this is one of the keys, the paths to true at least decriminalization is to embrace the other side of this equation here. And 

Caitlin Riley  51:52  
Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  51:53  
Get it going. Let's see, one thing I wanted to talk about is, like, I've heard you bring this up before but their.. PsyT is a volunteer organization. So what are the opportunities for people who are in Texas and would like to play a role? Are there any specific things you're looking for that the society would benefit from a lot?

Caitlin Riley  52:13  
Yeah, I mean, what are the things we are trying to do? I would say people who have nonprofit experience. And I'll be very clear about this. Because I just, we're trying to transfer to a nonprofit. And I say that because people assume we're a nonprofit. And it's not because we're, we're making any money, it's because we, when we started, we just had to 

Start?

To me, we had to start something. And so we started an LLC, and nonprofits can be a little bit difficult to, I mean, it's not impossible at all, there's just paperwork, and there's stuff involved in the bureaucracy. And it is, once you do it, like you really need to commit to it, and making sure you've got a board and things like that. So anyone who has nonprofit experience that can help that anyone with, you know, business experience in terms of, you know, business plans and things like that, we really want to grow it into something... you know, big, and, but we also -- you have to take steps. So there's a few different types of opportunities, I would say. I mean, there's things with events, in terms of just helping out at events, like people can always help like that. But we also want people have ideas for for events, if you have ideas for speakers, locations, that's really helpful. One of the hardest things.. this doesn't -- may not seem very sexy, but one of the hardest things, especially in different parts of you know, in Dallas, and Houston is finding locations and finding, I would say, you know, put out, I don't -- again, know who all your audience is. But if there's, you know, a certain CBD company or a float tank, you know, place or a place that has a community vibe to it, that also has places where we could meet, and in ways that we're not, it doesn't become an advertisement for the company. But, but it provides a space, that's helpful. Again, speakers bringing in diversity, what we really want to do is bring in more people that can be in the leadership and, and have ideas in terms how to run it because it is, you know, I say this just very, you know, honestly, it can be very tiring, because we're it's just all volunteer. 

Danny Mulvihill  52:32  
Yeah. 

Caitlin Riley  52:34  
And there's so many things. So people with social media experience, graphic design experience. I do a lot of the graphic design, and it's great and I love it, but it's just so much work.

Danny Mulvihill  54:24  
Yeah, if you can just have somebody that's just like is, that's their thing. 

Caitlin Riley  54:28  
Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  54:28  
They could do it better and faster. And 

Caitlin Riley  54:31  
Right

Danny Mulvihill  54:31  
You don't have to even though it's fun

Caitlin Riley  54:33  
Totally

Danny Mulvihill  54:33  
For sure

Caitlin Riley  54:34  
 And we have our websites on Wix. And that's something, if someone's a creative Wix web designer, you know, things like that. I think it's tough because there's so much potential and opportunity and I would say the goal of our organization is non commercial. And if I say that, what I say that is that we are going to make money but the goal of it is not to make money. Like that's not the primary goal. The goal of it is to create, you know, opportunities for education and community connection. But we as we grow and get larger, we really need find, to find ways to scale and it's just not sustainable to have, you know, four people doing everything and so, but what I will say, that's really hard is that and people who may have worked with volunteer organizations may know this is that you have people are like, Yeah, I'll totally volunteer. And then they do something once, and then they like, they check out and they never show up again. So we want to create an environment

Danny Mulvihill  55:27  
Committed volunteers

Caitlin Riley  55:27  
Committed volunteers. And we also realize that we want to create an atmosphere where there's reciprocity and generosity and people, you know, feel like they're not being taken advantage of. 

Danny Mulvihill  55:38  
Sure

Caitlin Riley  55:38  
So that's really important. And we would like to get to a, you know, a place where people, it's not necessarily expected, but people feel like they're being taken care of. And when I say not expected, I just mean, you know, people volunteer, and when they volunteer, maybe they're.. they get a free ticket to our events, or people -- it feels like, we're not a tit for a tat, but like, we're all you know, it's not transactional, but it's we're giving and we're taking, and we're, there's not like a scoreboard or anything, but we're all working together. And people want to do it, or we're putting things together. And so I think, you know, yeah, and there's so many different opportunities, and a lot of it was us right now trying to kind of create some infrastructure. And we obviously would like to grow to other cities. But unless we have a committed volunteer there

Danny Mulvihill  56:27  
Yeah

Caitlin Riley  56:27  
People have said to us, like, Hey, why did you come there, and we're like, we need to make sure there is a committed volunteer there, that's going to start it and really continue it 

Danny Mulvihill  56:34  
And sustain it

Caitlin Riley  56:34  
And will shepherd it. And we can do at least one event a month, and I will say too is that it's really important to have that consistency. Because if you have an event every four months, like people just don't keep coming back, they forget. 

Danny Mulvihill  56:46  
Yeah

Caitlin Riley  56:46  
And so consistency is really important.

Danny Mulvihill  56:48  
For sure. I'm curious.. what are some of the the primary reasons to shift to a nonprofit? Well, actually, let's answer that. And then I have kind of a follow up from there

Caitlin Riley  57:01  
Sure. And I'm I want to say too, I'm still learning. 

Danny Mulvihill  57:04  
Fair enough. 

Caitlin Riley  57:04  
So there's, there's the optics thing, which is like, well, nonprofits are, you know, sort of, you know, just bastions of philanthropy and whatnot. 

Danny Mulvihill  57:14  
Sure

Caitlin Riley  57:15  
But then you have -- nothing against the NFL, but the NFL is a nonprofit, you know, and, and they make more money than God. So it's not always that, like the, the nonprofit isn't necessarily perfect. And the, and the business is not, you know, you have all these different nuances between with public benefit, benefit corporations, and B Corps. And again, I wish I knew more nuances of all of them. But with nonprofits, you can, you can receive very large donations, you know, and so that is the benefit.

Danny Mulvihill  57:41  
And their tax..

Caitlin Riley  57:42  
And tax deductible. 

Danny Mulvihill  57:43  
Yeah

Caitlin Riley  57:43  
So people who, you know, or for, I mean, we've had donations from like Rambler before, which is really awesome that they did that. But HEB, for instance, like, I'm just, I'm saying this, because a friend told me like, they have write offs that they can do. So if they need to give away Whole Foods does this too. Vary, you know, a large benefactor could do this. So that is one of the main reasons to

Danny Mulvihill  58:06  
Like a single $1 million donation covers, like hundreds of events that you could potentially profit from.

Caitlin Riley  58:11  
Totally. 

Danny Mulvihill  58:12  
Okay. Yeah, that's a pretty clear answer there.

Caitlin Riley  58:14  
Right. And that's great. And then but I will say, with the nonprofit, there's a lot of different, you know, nuances to it, you have to have a very specific board, you have to have at least three people that are the certain, you know, the President the, the Secretary the, you know, the Treasurer, and there's just an all the sudden it, it's not, and it's good, it doesn't belong to anyone, it belongs to the world. Yeah. But it is a big opportunity. And so I mean, it is a big responsibility. So yeah, our -- we really would love to find to help build a community of committed volunteers in Austin. So that in Austin, and I apologize, I'm speaking for myself, but I would say, in these these major cities, right now, if anyone's listening from Houston, you know, we have a new volunteer there who's taking over and another one who -- and they're going to work together. And, and we really want to reinvigorate that. So that because Houston is a huge opportunity. 

Danny Mulvihill  59:07  
Massive, yeah.

Caitlin Riley  59:08  
And there just hasn't been enough there. We've had meetups here and there, that's fine. But we really want to, you know, really champion that and just provide opportunities for diversity for inclusion. And I would say, just because I'm in Austin, that's a lot of what I focus on. Although I know people in other, the other, you know, cities and I try to encourage helping them find, find the speakers and ideas and stuff is, you know, build -- our goal too and I should say this is to create a membership opportunity where people we have members, and so more of a like a psychedelic Co Op, where people can feel part of, of this and they are contributing and they are voting members. And you do have to put a certain amount of time in to kind of have a say, but it doesn't feel like it's this corporate hierarchical structure. It's of the community that I feel like that's really important in this new landscape of psychedelics, where there's going to be a lot of corporate stuff. And so where do we bring in community? And where do we have, you know, potentially, a healing opportunity? I mean, there's healing through community itself just by coming together, but potentially, like, community healing centers, you know, yeah, and so that is a big goal. And then to have community partners, business partners too, community partners, whether it's one person or a business that feel aligned, and, and that get special privileges and perks, you know, ultimately a directory of people that are vetted for certain things.

Danny Mulvihill  1:00:38  
Sure

Caitlin Riley  1:00:39  
And creating a, you know, holistic opportunity where there's, it's not just about psychedelic, a psychedelic compound, but a sort of whole, you know, ecosystem where there could be someone who's talking about cryotherapy or breathwork, or, you know

Danny Mulvihill  1:00:54  
this broader, like this tangential 

Caitlin Riley  1:00:57  
Yeah, that are all related. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:00:58  
Aspects of mental and physical health

Caitlin Riley  1:01:00  
Totally, and especially with integration being so important, like that's, you know, that psychedelic experience is 10% of, of the experience, the rest is how you incorporate it into your life. And there's all these tools that are really necessary to help you do that. And, and so that's going to be a big part of it, of creating this ecosystem where someone has an experience, then there's opportunities for them to, you know, work with that to have an integration circle, but then maybe have an embodiment session of something that is, again, it's not the, you know, the actual experience of the psychedelic, but as -- won't go, be too niche. But one of our, you know, guests said in the podcast is that we're always living in altered states, and there's so many ways to experience altered states. So I think, with this, we want to really talk about altered states in general. And, and harm reduction is really, really important. And a few of our, you know, board directors are really nuanced in that our you know, Zendo supervisors. And, and so that's really important to us, from all different aspects. And also just like recreation, too, we know people are going to use it for all different reasons. So.. but yeah, creating a community around it, that the goal is to come together and to heal and to be, you know, better performers in this thing we call life. So, yeah

Danny Mulvihill  1:02:23  
Awesome. I mean, you basically answer my next question there. So I feel like it would be definitely a good move to spend some time talking about the decrim, Austin stuff you're working with. So we'll kind of like put a bit of a bow on PsyT. We've covered a ton there. And if we get to the end, and there's something else you want us to know. Let's definitely go there. But I want to talk a little bit more about decrim Austin, what's going on there? And also how people could participate and help there?

Caitlin Riley  1:02:50  
Sure, sure. So yeah, we have a small group of people, a small team. And we've been working for the past year to create a resolution to introduce a resolution to city council to decriminalize sacred plants and fungi, and I say sacred because they are sacred. But to decriminalize psychologic -- I mean, psychological, psychedelic, you know, plants and fungi with the exception of of, you know, cacti containing mescaline, with the exception of peyote, and that's a whole 'nother ball of worms. That's really tough to deal with, because there's a lot of issues going on with that. And I don't want to

Danny Mulvihill  1:03:31  
Let's, let's excavate that another time.

Caitlin Riley  1:03:33  
We'll excavate that another time. But the idea too, is to be realistic. I want to say just outright that I think all drugs should be decriminalized. I think the drug war is a failure. I think most people know that. But I also, we're in Texas, and we have to take baby steps. And this is the first step in and safe way of like equating it with, with plants connected with nature, that and then, you know, again, we don't want to be psychedelic or exceptionalist. Some people will say you are right now by admitting that these are the ones that need to be decriminalized. But we're trying to not throw the baby out with the bathwater 

Danny Mulvihill  1:04:06  
Sure

Caitlin Riley  1:04:06  
And figure out what we can do first. So the idea is, you know, some people may not know it isn't necessarily true decriminalization, it's depriorita -- deprioritization. Deprioritization. And what that means is that you know, penalizing someone, criminalizing this, becomes the lowest priority for law enforcement like even lower than you know jaywalking or buying a pen that you use to do the citation.

Danny Mulvihill  1:04:33  
So it's effectively decriminalizing it. 

Caitlin Riley  1:04:36  
Decriminalizing it 

Danny Mulvihill  1:04:37  
Yeah

Caitlin Riley  1:04:38  
But you know, there's this idea that it's not.. the idea behind it is it's not for commercial or not, we're -- it's like this sort of, you know, grow-gather-give it's.. you are basically allowing people to grow their own medicine. You are allowing people to gift it to others and, and find it themselves but, but it's not for commercial use

Danny Mulvihill  1:05:00  
You can't go get a business, start a -- or get a license, start a business. 

Caitlin Riley  1:05:00  
Right

Danny Mulvihill  1:05:02  
Beside a gas station.

Caitlin Riley  1:05:04  
Exactly. And, you know, I think there's a lot of fear around it because these plants have been used. And fungi have been used for thousands of years. And there's a lot of evidence that they work. And in indigenous cultures and societies, there was a whole community based around it of safety and responsibility and elders taking.. there was a reverence for them. And so while there wasn't this regulation of schedule one or anything, there was this unofficial thing is like this is when you do it, and this is who's around and, and this is who take care -- takes care of it. And I think that's tough. Like we live in a different environment now. But it's also.. it's highly medicalized. And so I'm all for continuing medical access research. And it's gonna go that way as well. But I really firmly believe that these, these plants and fungi, we have an inalienable right to them. I don't even know if I said that, right. But we are like, as humans, we have a connection to them. And we should be allowed to A, you know, change our consciousness the way we want to do and access spiritual medicines the way we should, we should be allowed to do that. But, you know, I don't think there should be a gatekeeper. And so I think it's part of our role with, with PsyT, which is, again, a different organization than Decrim. But is education and, you know, educating people about proper use and, and harm reduction and how to have a proper sitter, and set and setting and integration. And so, with this, I'm kind of going on a tangent, but we've introduced a resolution to city council, and we've connected with them, and we're waiting to take meetings with them. And so we're looking for people, I don't know when this will air, but we're looking for people have connections to city council, or they can help, you know, spread the word and write letters on behalf of this. And what I'll say, too, is that these are effectively already deprioritized, because the cops have so much going on that they don't, they're not focusing on this.

Danny Mulvihill  1:07:06  
It's not like detectives trying to bust the

Caitlin Riley  1:07:08  
Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  1:07:09  
Ayahuasca Ceremony

Caitlin Riley  1:07:10  
So maybe some people would say, Well, why are you doing it then? And it is, it's because of symbolism. It's..

Danny Mulvihill  1:07:15  
Yeah

Caitlin Riley  1:07:15  
It's a symbolic shift to decriminalize this. Because it sends a message that people should not be going to jail for this. And there are certain people who are just not going to do it, because they could have their license taken away, and they could have their children taken away from them. And the reality is, you know, I don't I, I kind of determine this by looking at the Texas schedule. Oh my God, Controlled Substances Act. And so I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know, I don't want to, let's just say this, I'm pretty sure like, you know, possession of like four grams of psilocybin is the same, is the same kind of punishment as distribution of child pornography. They're on the same level. And I don't like -- I, it's just like, regardless of what you think, like, should it ever be on that level? Yeah. And so we're really trying to, you know, take a step to start with this. And, and go there. I mean, I think it's tough because we're, it's, you know, a blue city in a red state. And, but I'm hoping that city council will be open to it. And I'm hoping that we can make some progress.

Danny Mulvihill  1:08:24  
So yeah, that's awesome. It's.. so to answer your question, this episode will probably be air within a few weeks. So some opportunity there to kind of gather up people who might be able to make a difference.

Caitlin Riley  1:08:36  
I would say decrim ATX is our is our handle. So if anyone wants to visit there and sign up?

Danny Mulvihill  1:08:42  
Definitely, yeah, I have a lot of signing up to do myself after we wrap this up. So we've covered a ton, I really appreciated like the whole going through your experience and learning about how in depth it was. That's pretty impressive. And as you put it, a bit masochistic. But one thing I wanted to end on is now roughly five, six years later.. how are your physical symptoms with after going through all this, like sort of mental-spiritual work?

Caitlin Riley  1:09:11  
Yeah, thank you for asking. Um, what I would say and to be absolutely honest, is they they are different and not different. Like, in some ways, it's actually just as bad as it was before. And in some ways, it's getting better on certain days. And one of the things that I have come to and I'll say this in case it helps out someone else. What I'm working on now, the most, I've been microdosing, something called Amanita Muscaria, which some people may have heard of, it's, it's not psychedelic in the same way that psilocybin is, but it's a mushroom and it's known for being that red mushroom and the white dots and it's more subtle, it's a higher dose, but it's more subtle and people don't have these the same revelations although on a very high dose you might, but it acts more like a dream. And part of its, its message is to kind of help, help you help me reconnect with our true self and our gut feelings. And that, that purpose of what we are meant to do on this spinning globe, you know, and, and also it, it's actually also known as a natural benzo, which is one of the reasons I'm microdosing it, I've never actually taken a benzo but with something like POTS, it is when your breath is rushed all the time, it's just constant anxiety of a constant sort of like fight or flight state. And so

Danny Mulvihill  1:10:38  
And are benzodiazepines typically prescribed to minimize that?

Caitlin Riley  1:10:42  
Well, not for POTS necessarily, but for anxiety that's, you know, Xanax and things like that. Right? 

Danny Mulvihill  1:10:48  
Okay. 

Caitlin Riley  1:10:48  
And so it's, you know, mushrooms are adaptogens. And this one in particular is an adaptogen. And I think, you know, I met someone at our site event, actually, I've been hearing about Amanita Muscaria for, for years now, and how -- it's come to me in different ways. And finally, recently, at one of our events, I met someone who told me about his experience with it, and how it had helped him hear a pail of parasite, and also heal childhood trauma. And, you know, I don't want to speak for him, because I don't know. But what I would say is that, you know, with.. with this adaptogen, what it's doing is helping your body heal itself, like re regulating your body. So it does that. So, I've been on a journey for the past couple months, microdosing that and that's been really helpful. It's also brought up things that have been extremely difficult. So it hasn't been, you know, all rainbows and roses, you know, it's been really difficult. I have noticed some of my symptoms getting a little bit better. But what I would say for me, and I, you know, I'm saying this, and I will say like, those days when I don't believe it, so it's, it's a journey. And I think I would say help people, you know, understand to like, this journey is like a spiral, it's like going around in a circle and hitting the same pot, you know, over and over again. But hopefully, maybe, as you go up, you're looking at it from a slightly different perspective. So, you know, a lot of times, I'm like, I learned that lesson, and I lost the journey three years ago, I can't believe I forgotten it, you know, or, like, it's mostly gratitude related, but it hits you, like, you know, like a two by four in the middle of the head. And you're like, I knew that, you know. But, so it's been a journey, but and I keep learning things, and it's different. But I think for me, what I'm trying to kind of live in a space of is that I'm healed, that I actually can say that I'm healed. Because I think energetically when I say, I'm always trying to heal, and I need to get better, you're sending out a message to the universe that you are not healed. And so for me, what it is, is the lesson of saying I'm okay, I'm okay with how I am. And even if my legs feel like 500 pounds from.. you know, I'm okay, as I am, you know, and that, to me, is the message that I want to kind of accept and be. And I think it's tough finding that, that difference between acceptance. And, and.. what's the word? Giving up? Like, I think it's different, right? Yeah, it's being with like, your feelings and being with the shitty parts, but also knowing that you're okay how you are, you know, and you're gonna be okay. So I'm trying to find that balance of finding that equilibrium between the two or it's not like I'm saying that -- admitting that I'm a sick person, but it's admitting that I'm enough. And okay how I am. And I think a lot of us probably can learn from that. And I'm learning every day because it's very hard.

Danny Mulvihill  1:13:37  
One of the things you said in the beginning that really resonated with me is, I think it was your second to last Ayahuasca experience in Peru where it had hit you that you realized you had developed this identity of being a sick person. And having shed that sort of feels like maybe that was a big turning point. For you.

Caitlin Riley  1:13:57  
Sure. Yeah.

Danny Mulvihill  1:13:58  
To just be able to..

Caitlin Riley  1:13:59  
Absolutely. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:13:59  
Look at yourself.

Caitlin Riley  1:14:00  
Totally. And I think, for me, that's where the importance of storytelling comes in, and why it's so important with integration and with stories in general to move this movement forward is just the power of story and narrative, right and flipping that narrative and for people who, just for people who are watching something, and you know, a Michael Pollan's, you know, Netflix documentary, or something of shifting their own narrative of how they think of something. But I think yeah, so much is about identity and the ruts that we get into and the stories and the pathways and the, you know, what we create about ourselves, and it's so hard when you get sucked into it to then get out of it and take this, you know, this big view about it. And I think psychedelics really help us take that, they talk about the overview effect, the 30,000 foot view of looking at the Earth from a new perspective. But I will also say to you is it's not a magic pill because I've done it. I mean, I've had over 50 Ayahuasca ceremonies and I keep forgetting the lesson. So what I'm realizing too is that you It's, it's a practice, it's you know, it's a it's a journey of, of learning and unlearning, right. And then relearning, and then, you know, forgetting and then learning again, you know

Danny Mulvihill  1:15:11  
Yeah. 

Caitlin Riley  1:15:13  
Yeah. And here's to many more years of it so

Danny Mulvihill  1:15:18  
Amazing. All right, I almost forgot my signature question. I'm glad I remembered, I can't wait to hear your answer. So it's an easy one, don't worry, if you could push a button or snap your fingers, whatever action seems fit for you. And implant a new belief in our entire planet's mind. Like every person tomorrow wakes up with this new belief. And I always clarify, not just like an idea or some data point, but like, they wake up tomorrow, and they believe something of your choosing, what would you pick and why? 

Caitlin Riley  1:15:51  
That's..

Danny Mulvihill  1:15:53  
Easy

Caitlin Riley  1:15:53  
Easy question, huh. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:15:54  
I'm kidding but you got this, I know it.

Caitlin Riley  1:15:59  
I say this, what I would, what I would say and, and I want it because I want it for myself, is that like, we have the agency to heal ourselves, you know, and I would say many people in this movement already believe that. So that's great, but most people don't and we live in -- and I, and I'm victim to that as well. And we live in a culture that we're told that we need a certain medicine, we need a certain thing to make us better to make us heal to, you know, to fix us, when a lot of it's inside. And most of it's inside.

Danny Mulvihill  1:16:30  
Yeah 

Caitlin Riley  1:16:30  
And so I also think to like, in terms of self reliance, and in terms of agency, like there's a power and communing with nature and connecting with plants. And you know, we have to go to the pharmacy to get it, but we can also grow our own and be self reliant, and that we have the power to do it. So, again, I'm not perfect, and I'm working on that myself. But that's something that, you know, again, it's the whole big pharma model versus, and every place, every part of it has its part, I'm not bashing any of it. I just want it all of them to be recognized. And yeah, you know, so the agency, that self worth the idea that we, we all have the power within ourselves to, to change and make change and, you know, especially within our own bodies and minds, so

Danny Mulvihill  1:17:18  
Yeah, I love it. See, I knew I'd like your answer. All right. So we're wrapped up, if there's anything let's go over, go over how people can get involved in PsyT, Decrim Austin, and then also any personal contact information that you're comfortable sharing so people can connect with you.

Caitlin Riley  1:17:34  
Sure, sure. PsyT is Psy Texas. So PsyTexas.com, PsyTexas, and you can sign up for our newsletter, and be kept abreast of all the different events. If you want to volunteer, you can contact us there. Decrim, decrimATX, DecrimATX. And sign up for our you know, contact list there, we're going to be having again, I don't know if this will air in time, but a letter writing party soon. And my personal website is CaitlinRiley.com. And for me, I work with food health, and psychedelic companies to you know, help them sort of change the nature of their business through the power of storytelling, so shifting that, you know, individually and collectively shifting their business through the power of story, and that could be in copywriting, creative strategy, video production, and really focused on sort of the taboo breaking companies are the ones that are trying to kind of tell a difference, really shift the narrative and shift perspective, culturally. So that's what I like to focus on. So a lot of psychedelic companies but then it could be like regenerative agriculture or you know, something in the supplement space or, you know, food packaging that's doing something different entirely trying to like break -- break convention, I guess. So..

Danny Mulvihill  1:18:53  
Awesome and the decrimATX is that .com? 

Caitlin Riley  1:18:56  
Yes. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:18:56  
Okay. 

Caitlin Riley  1:18:57  
Yep. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:18:57  
Awesome. And Caitlin Riley, you'll be able to see how to spell Caitlin's name in the title of the podcast 

Caitlin Riley  1:19:02  
Yeah, CaitlinRiley.com.

Danny Mulvihill  1:19:05  
Boom. Nailed it. All dot coms nice and easy. 

Caitlin Riley  1:19:07  
Yeah. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:19:08  
Well, thanks again, Caitlin, for being here. Really appreciate it. It's been awesome.

Caitlin Riley  1:19:12  
Thank you. My pleasure. I really appreciate you having me. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:19:14  
Heck yeah. And we'll hopefully see you listeners a little sooner next time. It's been a while. Peace.

Caitlin RileyProfile Photo

Caitlin Riley

Co-directory Psychedelic Society of Texas

Caitlin Riley is an award-winning storyteller and contentologist who is a passionate advocate for the responsible use of psychedelics for growth and healing. She has worked hard to promote education and raise awareness for these substances and believes that they can be transformative when approached with intention, respect, and guidance from experienced facilitators. Her goal is to create a safe community for those who are interested in exploring the therapeutic potential of psychedelics. Caitlin began her journey with psychedelics through her own struggle with chronic illness and continues to promote responsible usage for therapy through her work as a co-director with the Psychedelic Society of Texas (PsyT).