040 - Matt Mormello on his path to Ayahuasca, overcoming addiction, and finding peace

Danny Mulvihill  0:16  
Hey everybody, I just wanted to drop this quick intro in here to give you a quick idea of what to expect. So, first of all, I guess I want to dedicate this episode to the group of people that came together for this Ayahuasca retreat that I was able to attend. Just wrapped up last week as I record this and I'm just gonna call everybody out. I came down here with my brother Ryan and our good friend Andrew, and then met tons of new friends there. To list them all out, we got Sara, Robin Christian, Sterling and Tiffany, Alyssa, Lysanne, Lucy, Mariah, Vlad, and then of course, Lina and Craig who helped out with the ceremony. And last but not least, Matt and Jeanae who really put together an amazing experience down here and guided with a lot of care, love, commitment. Amazing experience overall. Highly recommend anybody looking to do this to check out New Life Ayahuasca here in Costa Rica — amazing group of people and life-changing experience for sure. I have wanted to do this for a long time. It's probably been on my mind for 10 years and it all finally came together and I'm so grateful to have had the experience and broke the ice on this one for myself. Yeah, so, that’s the quick intro I wanted to provide. A note is that Matt and I recorded this at his place just down the street from where the retreat takes place and there was somebody in the background, sounds like maybe cutting some tile. I didn’t think it would come through on the recording as much as it did so if you hear that, I’m sorry. If this is the first time you're listening to the podcast, please know that typically, I manage to get better audio quality or at least not so much background noise. Either way though, it’s a really fun interview. Matt is a great insightful guy who I’m sure you can learn from and yeah, thanks for listening!  Welcome back to another episode of The Mind State podcast. Today, My guest today is Matt Mormello. Matt is an Ayahuasquero, who has been leading ceremonies since the end of 2015 himself, and has personally led, by his estimate, between 8 to 900 ceremonies. So doing a lot of good and bringing a lot of healing to the world. Matt, thanks for guiding me through my first experience this week, and also for being willing to sit down and record this with me.

Matt  2:42  
Yeah. Thanks for having me. 

Danny Mulvihill  2:43  
Heck, yeah. So like I had mentioned to you leading up to this, I always like to get your personal background story. So if you could just cue us up and say, really how we got here today, in as much depth and details you feel comfortable with.

Matt  3:00  
Like, all the way back before this?

Danny Mulvihill  3:02  
I mean we can go back to when you were a baby. 

Matt  3:07  
We could just start with what led me to plant medicine was I had a 15 year long addiction to Heroin, Opioids, Suboxone, you know, all that stuff, and over a period of 15 years and never really enjoyed that lifestyle, but I also didn't enjoy feeling my feelings. So what eventually happened was suboxone in the end allowed me to not run around the streets, like a maniac, but also not, you know, block my feelings. So I, you know, I always kind of felt trapped, but I didn't really know a way out. I tried many, many things. Nothing ever worked, you know, rehabs and NA meetings, and I tried going to yoga and I, you know, I went to like, motivational seminars and classes and groups and I tried a lot of different things and nothing, nothing ever really fulfilled my, well, I guess I just had something I was looking for and none of those things were it, and I knew it inside. So the first time I heard about plant medicine, I was sitting on my couch. I was watching a show on National Geographic, and a show came on about psychedelics and it did a little 15 minute segment on Ayahuasca, a little 15 minute segment on Iboga which is a plant medicine from West Africa that has a unique property of stopping withdrawal symptoms from opiates. So I, when I saw this show, like all these bells and whistles were going off in my head, like all these feelings I never felt it was like, this is what you're supposed to do this is your way up. And I knew it, like I like I never knew anything before it was. So it was like kind of in that moment that like my life became about getting myself to plant medicine somehow. I was broke, drug addict, you know, I was cleaning pools for a living and, you know, barely paying my bills. And but I just knew I just knew there was going to be a way that I was going to make this happen. So from the next morning, I just started reaching out to everybody that I could, anyone I could find on the internet, anything to do with, well first, it was Iboga because I had to get off, you know, I had to get off opiates first. I was very attracted much more attracted to ayahuasca at the time but I knew my path had to start with Iboga because of my addiction

Danny Mulvihill  6:10  
To get clean first, to sort of prepare for the actual Ayahuasca?

Matt  6:13  
Yeah, so the the guy that I saw on the National Geographic show that did the segment about Iboga that they were interviewing. I'm not really sure how to explain this. So I'll do the best I can, he, there was something about I don't know if it was his, his face or the way he talked, or I don't know what it was man. There was some kind of connection, that I knew that it had to be with him. I had to do this with him for some reason. So I found them on Facebook, I reached out to him I wrote like this whole long life story about myself and all the stuff that I had been through and told him why I wanted to do Iboga and all my history with opiates, and he didn't get back to me for three weeks. Meantime, I'm like still calling all these other people and like getting a hold of all these Ibogaine clinics and asking how much they charge and you know, all the details, so I could try to put something together. So after about a month goes by, this, this guy, that on the National Geographic show, he reached out to me and said, Yeah, we have something we want to talk to you about. Why don't you call my partner this guy named Bobby and we can discuss. So I give him a call, and we talked for a while get to know each other a little bit and he goes, so Vice TV is about to get a contract with HBO and they want to do an episode about about Iboga and about addiction, would you would you be interested in doing it and they would pay for the whole thing? Would you do it on camera? And I'm like, fuck yeah, I'll do it on camera. If they'll pay for it. I'll do just about anything. So, am I allowed to curse? Is that okay?

Danny Mulvihill  8:10  
Yeah, oh yeah.

Matt  8:12  
So yeah, so he said, Why don't you come up to New York I was living in Philly at the time so we can meet and see if it'll be a good fit. So I got on the train like three days later, went to New York, met everybody. We all connected and two weeks later we were on a plane with a camera crew going to Mexico to do my, my Ibogaine treatment. Wow, yeah, it was a really strange kind of strange the way it happened. But it was like, in that, in that time, like I always heard, like, I told you, I went to all these, like, self help groups and meditation things and all this kind of stuff. And I always heard about, like, you know, if you if you want something, you make it happen, you manifest. I never, I never did that. And that, this is like, oh, that's how you do that. But you have to have, like intentions. You know, you hear about intentions a lot. And that's when I truly understood what an intention was. It has to be almost something you're willing to die for. And you have to go after it like your life depends on it. I mean, otherwise, it's kind of empty. And if, if your intention is really what you need and what you want, you'll go after it, like your life depends on it, period. So I finally got an understanding of that and what that means to have that. So I went back home after the, the Mexico trip and I lasted probably about 30 days and then I relapsed. Yeah, well, I went back, you know, I was living in Philly.

Danny Mulvihill  9:51  
Yeah, right back in the same lifestyle.

Matt  9:52  
and cleaning pools and you know, growing weed in my basement and just like had no purpose. And I was like, Oh man, I was, I was very confused because I was like, you know, I thought this was it, I thought like doors would open for me something would happen. So two years goes by, I'm back on Suboxone, the guys that treated me and Mexico wound up coming down here to Costa Rica, and they opened an Ibogaine place. So I stayed in touch with them over the whole time, like we talked, we hung out a few times, and they were in New York. So they, I reached out to him, told him I didn't have any money. And, you know, they, they invited me down for treatment. They said, If you help out a little bit, you know, blah, blah, blah. So I went down, they said, I could stay for two months. Did another treatment, and I just started like, looking around the house and seeing all the shitty jobs that like nobody wanted to do, or nobody was doing the people that work there, you know, like dishes and taking out the trash. You know, cleaning up dog shit off the property. So I just, I started doing those things like this, it's like I recognized, I was very aware that that was my door. Like that was the doorway that was my my opportunity in life, that if I, if I gave it all I had and went after that, it would happen. So I started doing all that stuff. And they they offered me a volunteer position. They were paying me 50 bucks a week. I lived in the laundry room. 

Danny Mulvihill  11:25  
Wow.

Matt  11:26  
Yeah, but it was like better than, better than the life that I was living. So I said, Yeah, fuck yeah, I'll do it. I went home packed up all my shit, quit my job. Went back to the Ibogaine place and worked there. That was when I met Jeanae, Jeanae came for her treatment at that point, like right when I came back. And yeah, so me, then they offered Jeanae also a volunteer position. So we were both working there. They lasted about a year due to poor financial choices and other other mismanagement issues, the place went out of business. Okay. So me and Jeanae were just kind of like, what are we going to do? I guess we're going home. Like that's it. 

Danny Mulvihill  12:15  
Yeah. 

Matt  12:16  
But Meantime, so I left this out, which is probably pretty important. Probably about six months before they went out of business me and Jeanae started going to this place in Costa Rica to drink Ayahuasca that was like an hour away. So we were gone there like every other weekend, drinking Ayahuasca one night here, two nights there and got pretty close with the family that was running the place and when they went out of business that guy called me up and said why don't you guys come here and do Ibogaine treatments on our weeks off? You know, we do a week on and then we take a week off, he already had the rooms, he already had the ceremony space. So we like literally looked at each other. And we're like, can we actually we actually do this? Like, is this something that we can do? So we, with, with a bogey, you need a medical staff. So we had a nurse, you know, in the place and out of business. He went home back to Michigan, I think he was from so we called him up and we were like, Yo, man, we think, we think we're gonna start one do you want to come back down? So he was like, yeah, so we were like, oh shit, we can actually do this. 

Oh my gosh.

Which was actually the worst fucking thing you could possibly do like to work with, with this, a medicine like Iboga for, for a few months under the training of some guys who didn't really know what the hell they were doing. And then think you're going to open your own places is fucking insane. Now looking back on it. 

Danny Mulvihill  13:44  
Yeah.

Matt  13:44  
Really stupid. And I approached Ayahuasca the same way too. I didn't, you know at the time I didn't know any better. I didn't really understand. I just didn't want to go home. So we went over there, we did some some Ibogaine treatments. And we were working only with opiate addicts, doing detoxes. Very dangerous, by the way, to give somebody a very powerful plant medicine, while they're detoxing from opiates, I came to find out over the years that it's very disrespectful to the spirit of that plant to use it that way.

Danny Mulvihill  14:26  
Can you linger on that for a second?

Matt  14:27  
What's that? Yeah, yeah, sure.

Danny Mulvihill  14:28  
Let's dig into that. So maybe if you could just elaborate on, you know, from your perspective. Is it -- What do you think would be a more respectful way to go about that?

Matt  14:43  
Well, with, I kind of find that with Ayahuasca too, plant medicine probably in general. You know, I know that the internet kind of tasks these things as like, you take this couple of times and all your problems will be over but you have to approach these things with a very serious level of commitment and a very, very serious intention which sometimes or the most of the time requires some kind of commitment on your end beforehand. So to just walk in, you know, with a needle in your arm or whatever and then six hours after your last shot, take Ibogaine. Okay, you know, that's, it's very disrespectful. Like, I feel like if, if this is your path in life, then you go to you go to detox first, and you show some level of commitment, on your willingness to stop using drugs or whatever your problem is, and then you approach these plants. But if you just approach them thinking that they're going to do all the work for you, they won't. And a lot of time, it'll be the opposite. They'll punish you on top of it.

Danny Mulvihill  15:55  
Yeah, that makes sense when you put it in that context there. Another thing I want to ask you about, I'm not familiar with Suboxone.

Matt  16:02  
Suboxone is like methadone. 

Danny Mulvihill  16:04  
Okay, gotcha. So it's sort of to get off of street heroin or opiates.

Matt  16:09  
Yeah. So it's an opiate

Danny Mulvihill  16:11  
A legal option. 

Matt  16:12  
Yeah. But it's a long acting opiate. So you take one or, you know, most of the pills come in eight milligrams. So you take a eight milligram pill, and then you're, you're good, you won't get sick for like, 30 hours. And they're prescribed by a doctor. And they also have, they have a ceiling effect. So once you take a certain amount of milligrams, there's no more, there's no more effect to it. So there's no like reason to abuse right? And there's no reason to get like a crate, like, you know, with heroin, you start one bag a day, then turns into two bags a day, and then four bags a day. So it's suboxone that only goes so far. So it doesn't get crazy. You completely dead inside, you have no feelings whatsoever. I mean, it's the same as being on opiates, except for without the crazy behavior because of the way it hit your opiate receptors in a slow acting,

Danny Mulvihill  17:05  
Yeah.

Matt  17:05  
Fashion. 

Danny Mulvihill  17:07  
So you'd said, like, sort of towards the beginning that you had an issue with not feeling your feelings? And that you feel that's probably part of why you turned to drugs and substances? Because, well, maybe I'll let rather than attempt to describe it myself. Can you elaborate on that? What was it about substances that helped you escape that struggle?

Matt  17:34  
Well, it wasn't so much substances. It was opiates.

Danny Mulvihill  17:38  
Specifically? 

Matt  17:39  
Yeah.

Danny Mulvihill  17:39  
Yeah. 

Matt  17:40  
When I, when I first took opiates, I was like, This is what I've been looking for my whole life. Because all of my past trauma, if that's what you want to call it, a lot of it I signed up for it. So I don't like to say trauma necessarily, like I'm a victim, because I put myself in those positions. Most if not all the time. So I just didn't, I just you know, from, from being in pain, and I went through a few things in life. When I was very young, I got, when I was 19. Just out of high school, I got diagnosed with bone cancer, had to do year and a half of chemotherapy and radiation. Immediately after that I got into a really sick relationship with a woman. We were together for five years, had a kid, found out he wasn't mine.

Danny Mulvihill  18:34  
Oh.

Matt  18:34  
Yeah. And though, I think those two things like one after the other over a period of like, six years, seven years of my life, I just had enough. I just had enough and I, at that point, I wasn't, I don't think I was capable of feeling those feelings without doing some stupid. Well, 

Danny Mulvihill  18:54  
Yeah.

Matt  18:54  
Even more stupid than opiates. 

Danny Mulvihill  18:56  
Yeah..

Matt  18:57  
Like suicide, you know? So when I took opiates, all that shit stopped. All those feelings stopped and I felt, I felt like I used to feel, you know, before I went through all that stuff. So I was like, this is the answer. And I kind of knew it was a trap. But at that point, I was well, I was kind of like signing, signing your soul over to the, to the devil.

Danny Mulvihill  19:19  
Yeah, I mean, the thing is, I've come to have a lot more sympathy for Addiction and Substance Abuse just because, now I see it as it's a way to keep the organism alive.

Matt  19:34  
Mhmm.

Danny Mulvihill  19:36  
Because if people don't turn to them, sometimes the alternative really is just offing themselves 

Matt  19:41  
A lot of times.

Danny Mulvihill  19:42  
And so, when you look at it through that lens, it's, I'm not even really mad about it anymore. If I see somebody struggling with something, or having people close to me that have struggled and then overcome it. I am almost grateful to those things.

Matt  19:58  
Yeah.

Danny Mulvihill  19:58  
Because it kept them alive. 

Matt  19:59  
Yup. 

Danny Mulvihill  20:00  
All this time. So, I hope that like as a culture, we can get a little bit better of just having a little more sympathy. 

Matt  20:09  
Yeah. 

Danny Mulvihill  20:09  
People that are going through this kind of thing. 

Matt  20:11  
Yeah. Well, they need probably well, I won't get into all that. But it needs to be a big change in the way we approach that whole thing, I think.

Danny Mulvihill  20:20  
Yeah, yeah, we'll stay focused on Ayahuasca is one of the potential modalities to help us through that. Let's just talk a little about this bone cancer a little bit more, because Jeanae gave me a little bit of the story. And it's you went through a lot there just mentally? 

Matt  20:37  
Yeah. 

Danny Mulvihill  20:38  
So she was telling me that, you know, 19, you're diagnosed with a pediatric cancer? Yeah. So first of all, that was weird in that you were old enough to go to sort of an adult cancer treatment facility, but you had a type of cancer that the most experience was in a pediatric center.

Matt  20:56  
Yup.

Danny Mulvihill  20:57  
So what was that? Like? Basically, being a young man, and yet having mostly other patients around you be young boys or young girls?

Matt  21:09  
Yeah, I mean, that, that wasn't such a big deal. Because I, well, I made friends with a lot of the kids there, you know.

Danny Mulvihill  21:17  
Yeah. 

Matt  21:17  
Like, I was roommates with him. And it was, it was very sad. But we found some kind of like, even though they were like, 10, and I was like, 19.

Danny Mulvihill  21:26  
Yeah.

Matt  21:27  
We find something to talk about, or their parents would always be with him. And I, you know, shoot the shit with their parents. And, 

Danny Mulvihill  21:34  
Yeah.

Matt  21:35  
Yeah, but I, I think more more the thing that kind of affected me in that was, you know, that time in your life, probably, you're supposed to be like, learning about who you are, and like learning about going out into the world and like making your own way. But I had like two years where I was just being taken care of by everybody. So I think that's kind of like that, that was kind of what fucked me up. Because then I think when that was over, maybe, I think I had like, I don't want to call it like a level of entitlement. But I just kind of, I think I learned that like, the world would take care of me or something. Were like that, I didn't have to take care of myself. I think just the timing of it, you know, just after high school, like, I didn't have to worry about getting a job, because I was getting money from from disability or whatever. And, you know, so my life just kind of became about, I'd go get my chemo treatments, and then fuck off and hang out with my friends like all day and play cards all night long. And 

Danny Mulvihill  22:42  
Yeah

Matt  22:43  
Just, I didn't I didn't have any responsibility, which is understandable. Like going through stuff like that, like, probably shouldn't have been working. But I think it distorted my my view of like, how to become a man. Yeah, how to become an adult.

Danny Mulvihill  23:03  
I mean, that's still such a struggle since we've lost. At least for sure, in the Western world. There's not too many rites of passage, especially for men, like women still lack solid legit rites of passage, but like, at least they get their period. There's something that is this transition into womanhood. But for young boys and young men, there's oftentimes almost nothing. And then you had this experience that sort of messed that up even more. 

Matt  23:29  
Yeah, yeah. 

Danny Mulvihill  23:30  
Then. What's typical?

Matt  23:32  
Yeah. Kind of like I was treated like a like a, like a five year old, you know. Like, I didn't have to do anything really for myself.

Danny Mulvihill  23:40  
Yeah. So obviously, you survived that, which is awesome. Super stoked about. And we've, we kind of have jumped a little bit around chronologically. So let's jump back to where you and Janae are back in Costa Rica, and ayahuasca is starting to become more of your story

Matt  24:07  
Yeah, so, so we're working at this Ayahuasca place doing Ibogaine treatments and then we saved up enough money at that place to get our own. It was like a, It was basically like a house like this, a small little two bedroom house. And we were just working with drug addicts who were taking you know, one person at a time doing Ibogaine detoxes or opiate detoxes with Ibogaine and I think, I think at some point like I, I kind of just like Ayahuasca got put on the back burner because I was kind of kicked through the store of working with Iboga even though I felt much more of a connection to it. I didn't really like Iboga the experience itself, I hated it. Both times that I did it I, you know, it was very painful and just like It didn't make me feel very good. And I had really no connection with it, other than it was like this whole idea of plant medicine I had in my head. So I, at that point I really wanted to not, you know, kind of transition out of working with Iboga and into working with Ayahuasca. So we had a, we had a guy that came to us for an Ibogaine treatment. And then after he left our place, he was going to Peru for six months to drink Ayahuasca and diet and learn a little bit about working with Ayahuasca. So I reached out to him and just said, Do you know anybody that is willing to take a student maybe come here to Costa Rica and do some ceremonies for me. So the idea was, we were going to open like an Ayahuasca place and just bring, bring somebody

Danny Mulvihill  25:52  
Yeah.

Matt  25:52  
To do ceremonies. So he put me in touch with a guy named Ron Wheelock, who is now my teacher. And I reached out to him, we had a few conversations on the phone and through email, and we had it all set up for him to come. And he came. So there was like, a two year period of time where Costa Rica required Peruvians to have a visa to get into the country, and vice versa, Costa Ricans need a visa getting approved was like some dumb fight that the two countries got into it was like, Oh, well, you're gonna do it. We're gonna do it, too. So it wasn't like that before those two years. And it's not like that. Now, it was only those two years. So Ron's wife is Peruvian. So he brought her because she helps him in the ceremonies. And when he got here to the airport, they wouldn't let him in. 

Danny Mulvihill  26:43  
Aw, man. 

Matt  26:44  
And we had like, Yeah, we had like, 12 people booked.

Danny Mulvihill  26:47  
Oh damn. 

Matt  26:48  
But yeah, it was it was a little scary in the moment. So we went to the airport, and they're, they're letting us talk to him at the gate on the phone. But they won't let us in there. And they won't let him out. Like to talk to us. So at the time, I was like, oh, life's over, you know. 

Danny Mulvihill  27:08  
Yeah. 

Matt  27:08  
And everything was falling apart. We had to go home and make some pretty uncomfortable phone calls to the people that we 

Danny Mulvihill  27:15  
Yeah

Matt  27:15  
That we had booked and, but we made it through and because that happened me and Janae wound up going to Peru to meet Ron.

Danny Mulvihill  27:24  
Instead?

Matt  27:25  
Yeah. And he was, he, we paid him for, for a liter of medicine, which he was bringing for us. 

Danny Mulvihill  27:31  
Yeah. 

Matt  27:31  
And we didn't get it. So we had to go down and get it now. 

Danny Mulvihill  27:34  
Yeah. 

Matt  27:35  
So it was so we went down. We drank with Ron for the first time and we got to meet him. And

Danny Mulvihill  27:43  
That's the first time you experienced Ayahuasca? or no, you and Jeanae had

Matt  27:46  
No I had, I drank probably about 50 times already at that point at this place that we were like working at and then before that, we were just going there to drink like every other weekend.

Danny Mulvihill  27:55  
Okay.

Matt  27:56  
But not in a proper way. We would just go there and it would be groups and they would put on like a CD. And just like kind of sit there for like a half hour and make sure everybody's alright, and then be like alright, goodnight! We're gonna go see guys in the morning. Yeah, it was no ceremony or anything. It was, it was kind of irresponsible. Now looking back on it, but I'm very grateful for that place. Because I did even, even in that kind of setting. I had some very beautiful experiences. So yeah, we went down and drank with Ron and we were still doing Iboga and so we were, we basically were taking people for Iboga and then if they wanted to stay with us for two weeks, they could drink Ayahuasca too. But we didn't have any ceremonies or anything. We just we kind of did same thing

Danny Mulvihill  28:50  
That you had done

Matt  28:51  
Right, even though at this point, I had already drank with Ron and I knew that it was kind of not the right way. So I was trying to like sing, you know, I would sing songs just that would maybe come in the moment. I had, I had the gong and I had a singing bowl. And 

Danny Mulvihill  29:08  
Yeah

Matt  29:09  
So I would try to do as much as I could, but I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. So most of it was recorded music so that's what I when I said earlier, that's kind of how I approached Ayahuasca the wrong way was that and then so I asked Ron if he would teach me he said no. This went on for like a year and a half. Wow. Yeah. And then finally, at some point, I think me and Ron just built up like a friendship because I was going down there to get medicine and we would drink together. And then finally, and then he we were having them come to Costa Rica and do ceremonies. So finally he, he agreed, after about I don't know it was probably about a year and a half.

Danny Mulvihill  29:55  
He's like, Okay, this guy is, it's not just a face.

Matt  29:59  
I don't know. If that was it, maybe? I don't know. You'd have to ask him, I guess. 

Danny Mulvihill  30:05  
Yeah.

Matt  30:05  
Why he decided. But he did. So then he started telling me, you know, I need to start dieting and doing these trainings. So the first diet is you have to be, you have to be in your, basically in your bed for seven days, you're not allowed to leave your cabin. So they put a hammock in there for you to so you can move from the hammock to the bed, which is actually kind of exciting. When you're in that position, you're like, alright, two more hours in the bed. And then I'm gonna, I'm gonna cheat myself and get in the hammock. So you like play these little games with yourself. But the first I went and did it the first time and I backed out really quickly, I was like, No fucking way. I wasn't ready to face myself and my thoughts, the way my way my brain works. And I just gave up. And I come to find out over a period of break and a few diets, I broke the rules on a few of them, that the, the plants that you're dieting, you know, they're there to help you. But if you don't help yourself, and you break your commitment to them, they have spirits, and they're not always nice, and they will fucking punish you in a very deep way. So some people even say that they'll kill you. 

Danny Mulvihill  31:26  
Damn.

Matt  31:27  
Yeah. 

Danny Mulvihill  31:28  
Wow. 

Matt  31:28  
So when you when you make them angry, it's not, I feel like it's more like, like a relationship in nature, more than a human relationship. You know, you see, like, animals that just fucking eat their kids, or like, leave them because of this reason, or that, you know.

Danny Mulvihill  31:49  
Just a little more metal. 

Matt  31:50  
Yeah. So they're there to help you. But it's, I mean, there's, there's a coldness to it, too. They don't necessarily give a shit about you. I feel like to the, maybe they care about you to the same level you show care and respect to them. But they will not be nice to you if you don't.

Danny Mulvihill  32:09  
Yeah, I can. I can vibe with that. One topic that's interesting to me, as I've told you already, but maybe people listening don't know this. I was hanging out with my brother and our really good friend Andrew. I mean, really, one of our brothers now, a few months ago, and it became clear that the three of us should go drink Ayahuasca together, it seems like the right thing to happen. And like I said, in the sharing circle, I just looked around, and I saw some pain in those guys. And I knew I had some shit on my own that I needed -- wanted to address. So I just started messaging places. I, I felt compelled to, to check Costa Rica, because I really, I had already been to Peru and I could go somewhere new that I haven't been and Costa Rica is just such a beautiful place. I wanted to come here to do it, it's closer to home. So I think I messaged three places here. And you guys are the only ones that got back to me. 

Matt  33:11  
Oh, really?

Danny Mulvihill  33:11  
Which is shocking to me.

Matt  33:13  
That is shocking.

Danny Mulvihill  33:13  
I message three people, I'm willing to hand over 1000s of dollars and bring two people with me. And one person wants to get back to their qualified customer. But I'm really glad it was you. And so,

Matt  33:26  
Me too.

Danny Mulvihill  33:27  
Right? It really worked out. And at first I didn't. I didn't recognize the importance of what I was getting myself into. I knew Ayahuasca was special but I just felt like it was a stronger psychedelic than LSD and mushrooms. And I was like, you just go, you do the thing, you have the experience. I didn't think too hard about it. So I was just like, Guys, I found a place this is the thing, this is the cost. Like these are the dates, do these work for you? Okay. And I really wanted to keep, take advantage of the moments and we had, so I was just like, alright, I booked mine, you know. I put down my deposit and they're like, Okay, all right, you know. And it came together in days, you know, which I was like, Yes! And then I started telling friends and you know, even professional associates, that's what I'm doing, they're like, oh, like, Did you research the place? And I'm like.. No, not at all. I mean, a little bit anyway.

Matt  34:28  
Did you do any research? 

Danny Mulvihill  34:29  
I mean, I look at your website, like read some reviews. So I wasn't just a complete naive fool about it. But the response I was getting from some people is I should have went a little more in depth with my research like I should have got referrals from people I personally know. And, and even one of Ryan's friends who has a lot of connections in the plant medicine world was talking to Ryan was like, "Okay, I'm gonna look around I'll try to find out and ask -- find out for you" and I was getting a lot of feedback that, and my wife, she was also taking this, like, it was kind of billed as like a psychedelic assisted coaching program, but a lot more addiction focused in the beginning called being 'True To You'. And so she's telling some people in her class about it, and they're like, oh, like, "Did he research this?" and I'm getting a lot of feedback, like, oh, fuck, what did I do? And, and they're still, you know, a lot of people get really caught up in the authenticity, like, Oh, you gotta go to Peru. And it's got to be a jungle and this like, really old, like, short lady, or old man and like, utterly authentic. And I was feeling a little like, Oh, I hope I didn't mess this up. And, but, you know, we had already booked it. And I was like, you know, at the end of the day, it is what it is, like, I'm not actually worried that something bad is gonna happen. But I had a little bit of fear that I had made a mistake. And fortunately, I think it was a few weeks ago, I started reading this book called, after the ceremony ends, I think.

Matt  36:03  
Yeah, I saw that you --

Danny Mulvihill  36:04  
Yeah, I shared to the group earlier. And in the, I think, the introduction of the first chapter, it draws this distinction between what, you know, people in a traditional Amazonian plant medicine culture might use these medicines for, maybe it's for relief from physical ailments, or going back further, to decide whether or not to start or prevent a war, like, it could be a little bit, there would be different motivations for it. And typically, when Westerners come to the medicine, it's more self actualization. You know, work on maybe trauma or childhood stuff there. It's, there's not a complete difference between the two. But there can be some distinctions of why people come to the medicine, and it sounds like okay, and the book was making the point that it can be valuable to find somebody to guide you through this, who maybe has a little bit more of a connection to why you might personally be coming to it. 

Matt  37:06  
Yep. 

Danny Mulvihill  37:07  
And obviously, I latched on to that and I was like, yes! I knew I made the right decision. And then the other, I guess, metaphor I'll make about it is that when I first started jiujitsu, 11 years ago. I, it was really important to me to have a Brazilian instructor because Brazilian Jujitsu, right? Yeah. And, and luckily, the first instructor I had was brilliant, really good and spoke clear enough English that it wasn't a problem. And I encountered a few other teachers, you know, he'd have his friends come teach. And I was like, I don't know what the fuck this guy is saying, like, what is going on? And it's one of my close friends who -- he introduced me to jujitsu, really. And I was kind of bringing this topic up with him. And he's like, Dude, I don't like learning from Brazilians like, because I'd prefer to learn from somebody who speaks the same language as me. And then when I read this, in that book, I was like, oh, yeah, like, I'm going to go hang out, like, I'm going to be able to talk to these people. You know, I'm going to tell them what I'm after. And if I'm messing something up, they're gonna be able to tell me what I'm doing wrong. It'll -- So I'm saying all of that to get to the point of, do you have any response to all this shit, I just laid out upon your like, What's your thinking about, you know, being able to guide people through these ceremonies, with your own background as an American?

Matt  38:27  
Yeah, well, I think, whatever, whatever you feel, if you feel like you need to go drink in the Amazon, I would never try to talk anybody out of that. Because it's the Amazon, with or without psychedelics is, is a very powerful experience and just energy in that place. And if you feel that you want to drink with a Peruvian or Brazilian or Colombian, and you want to do it that way, then you should you should listen to that. So I don't think that there's maybe any right answer, necessarily, I feel like it's what's right for the individual.

Danny Mulvihill  39:12  
Yeah, that's fair. Well, I can say that I personally really enjoyed this experience. 

Well thanks.

Like,

I'm glad you had a good one.

Being at the retreat this week, I was like, This couldn't have been better. And obviously, you know, I'm still experiencing afterglow, and it was a pretty fantastic group of people that came together. And you and Janae are both quite skilled, as well as you know, the helpers that you have facilitating. It's a really well put together thing that you guys are doing. So I,

Matt  39:38  
Thank you. 

Danny Mulvihill  39:39  
You're welcome. Thank you. Okay, so we'll kind of put a bow on that one. Here's a little note I have here. When did -- So the name of the retreat and I should have mentioned this in the beginning is 'New Life Ayahuasca'. When did that name land and you really started to arrive at that branding?

Matt  40:01  
I actually didn't like the name. And it was it was the nurse that I told you about -- our old Iboga nurse. He came up with it. We were like trying to come up with all these names and everybody you know we throw one out -- Nah, that don't work. Throw one out, nah, that don't work. And he said that and I was like, yeah, it's all right, you know? 

Danny Mulvihill  40:21  
Yeah. 

Matt  40:21  
Jeanae was like, Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. So it just that's how it came. And yeah, just just landed. I guess.

Danny Mulvihill  40:28  
Yeah. 

Matt  40:28  
It wasn't -- I wanted to call it like something a lot more cool than that. But I,

Danny Mulvihill  40:33  
Any ideas you care to share? I don't want to

Matt  40:35  
I don't even remember. It was so long ago. But just something like, not new life. 

Danny Mulvihill  40:42  
Fair enough. I get it, I get it. 

Matt  40:44  
I mean, there's a lot of like, there's so many new lives out there, man. There's like a new life weird like church thing. And 

Danny Mulvihill  40:53  
Yeah

Matt  40:54  
New life rehab. And

Danny Mulvihill  40:56  
Oh okay.

Matt  40:56  
I mean, this is just kinda generic.

Danny Mulvihill  40:57  
something a little more unique. 

Matt  40:59  
Yeah. 

Danny Mulvihill  41:00  
I get that. 

Matt  41:01  
Yeah. 

Danny Mulvihill  41:02  
All right. Okay, so I feel like we got a pretty solid pulse on your background and how you got here today. So let's get into, you know, what these ceremonies look like for people. And one quick sidetrack I want to make is I'm curious if you had any interest in music before you came to Ayahuasca?

Matt  41:26  
I mean, yeah, I always loved music. I played. Well, I didn't play guitar, but I had a guitar in high school. All my friends. A lot of my friends played so I knew a couple chords on the guitar. I DJ'd for a few years.

Danny Mulvihill  41:43  
Oh, me too. 

Matt  41:43  
Oh, did you?

Danny Mulvihill  41:44  
Yeah

Matt  41:44  
How about that? What kind of music?

Danny Mulvihill  41:46  
Drum and Bass 

Matt  41:47  
Me too! 

Danny Mulvihill  41:48  
No shit? 

Matt  41:48  
Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  41:49  
Oh, my God. What's awkward about that?

Matt  41:51  
All right. Wow. Anyway, so not, I don't -- I don't know if being a DJ is really musical ability. I don't feel like probably it is.

Danny Mulvihill  42:02  
It feels a little bit less than like being able to rip on a guitar or something. But it's, you know, there's a it's pretty cool still.

Matt  42:08  
Yeah, I mean, rhythm is what you required? Probably. Maybe not even these days with all the

Danny Mulvihill  42:15  
and I'm more thinking about my personal skill level with it. I've certainly encountered Drum and Bass DJs, who are fucking brilliant musicians. 

Matt  42:22  
Yeah.

Danny Mulvihill  42:22  
I just wasn't one of them.

Matt  42:26  
So yeah, I mean, just like that, but nothing serious. And no, I haven't, I didn't have any very strong background in music.

Danny Mulvihill  42:35  
Okay. And the reason I, that came to me is prior to, you know, even knowing about new life and committing myself to an Ayahuasca ceremony, and like booking it and making it all happen. You hear about the Icaros and the music, and I've even heard some people sort of expressed some, like, frustrate -- not frustration, but like, annoyance at that, like some people being like, Oh, I just, it wasn't really for me. And I've even heard this more specifically in the context of an Ibogaine ceremony, where they -- you like try and introduce some ceremonial aspects. And I think maybe part of it was the clientele and the people coming to the ceremony that the music didn't really resonate with them very much. And so I remember coming into, like, wondering what the music was going to be like. And then you hear it, and you're, it's, it's like nothing you've ever heard before.

Matt  43:34  
Yeah.

Danny Mulvihill  43:35  
And yet, it's the most perfect, beautiful thing you've ever heard before. It's so amazing. Let's just talk about how did you come up with these songs that you create?

Matt  43:49  
They come to me in the moment. Yeah, so it's over the years drinking Ayahuasca and also through diets. So usually, when I, when I go do a diet, I always come home with a new song that seems to stick a lot. A lot of the songs that I sing, they don't stick. Like I sing this really, song that I like a lot. And I'm like, Oh, I really like this. And then I can't remember. And I never seen it again and never comes back and it's gone forever. You know?

Danny Mulvihill  44:23  
Wow. 

Matt  44:23  
So a lot of them that happens that way. My teacher teaches me songs. So I sing a few songs that I learned from him. I learned a few songs from his teacher. But most of it Yeah, just comes in the moment.

Danny Mulvihill  44:37  
And the ones that stick are the ones that stick

Matt  44:39  
Yeah, which is usually only the ones that come on a diet but all the rest of it. I've kind of feel like if I, if I am successful, it just kind of removing myself from from the ceremony and just letting the Ayahuasca you know, do what she wants to do with me.

Danny Mulvihill  45:00  
Work through you?

Yeah, it's really astonishing to witness and to experience. I mean, obviously, you're under the effect of an intensely powerful psychedelic. And so, I mean, bringing it back to drum and bass. I think I fell in love with Drum and Bass because I was under the influence of psychedelics. 

Matt  45:20  
Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  45:20  
At raves. 

Matt  45:21  
Yeah, makes sense. 

Danny Mulvihill  45:22  
And obviously, like, this is the best sound that's ever been created, of course, and then you play it for somebody else. And they're like, that is the most annoying shit I've ever heard. 

Matt  45:30  
Probably what would happen if you played my recording for somebody. What the fuck is this?

Danny Mulvihill  45:36  
Fair enough. Okay, so that was a fun little side note. I'm glad we went there. So the ceremony itself, I guess let's spend a moment on. And right now we're thinking about the audience for this next discussion would be probably people who haven't committed or maybe they -- it hasn't even occurred to them to try Ayahuasca yet. They've heard it, and it's never been like something they want to do. And they've listened to this so far. And we're pretty cool. And they're like, I want to be cool. Like those guys. Like, I should go do that. What are the things that you would want to convey to somebody considering this, about preparing themselves for it?

Matt  46:19  
Well, I can say that Ayahuasca, is, is not for everybody. And certainly, I mean, maybe this isn't for me to say, but I'll say it anyway. Certainly not for all my friends who did it, and I want to have something to talk about, or I want to, you know, just to, just to say that I did it. Definitely not a good reason to drink Ayahuasca, it's very serious, it's very powerful. If you're not very committed to it, well, I've seen a lot of times people come down. And you know, that's, maybe, they -- one of the reasons why they come this is what I just said, or something else equally, is kind of empty. They drink Ayahuasca once they get hammered, and they say, I'm never doing that again.

Danny Mulvihill  47:08  
So once somebody has ruled that out, which I think is really a poignant point to make, because it has so much cultural momentum right now. That, that I'm glad you pointed that out, that could definitely disqualify some people. And so if you're that person, make sure that you're ready. So let's say somebody's made it through that hoop. Maybe they even just disqualified themselves, and they think about it for a few more months or years. And then they're like, No, I think I am ready. Now. There's more depth to my, my reason for doing this. What comes next to prepare to do this in a productive, meaningful, like, heart centered way?

Matt  47:56  
Well, you should, you should always think about the, what you really want to get, you know, intention, kind of what we talked about earlier. But again, intention is, is not just some empty thing, it's a very serious, it's a very serious commitment. When you make an intention, you go after it, like I said, like your life depends on it. And if you're not approaching it in that way, then maybe you won't get what you're looking for, I don't know. So it's important, you, you focus on why you really want to do this. And also to think about I said it earlier, and I really kind of want to hammer it home that Ayahuasca or any plant medicine is not going to -- it's not something that you do once and everything's done, or twice, or three times, or 10 times, or 20 times. Ayahuasca is a healing modality like anything else like yoga, meditation, martial arts, whatever it is, whatever works for you. You're not gonna go take a yoga class for a week and you're a spiritual guru and all your problems are solved. Ayahuasca is the same way if it's a path that works for you. It's something that you will continue down that path for the rest of your life, most likely. And it's a very serious commitment. So, you know, if you're, if you're thinking about approaching Ayahuasca or any plant medicine, or any healing modality for that matter, you should think about whether you you want to make that kind of commitment.

Danny Mulvihill  49:33  
Yeah, is this something that you're willing to integrate in your life more long term? So first of all, I completely agree but one thing I'm curious of your perspective on is you need to have a clear intention, and really believe it and go after it with all you got. How do you reconcile that with showing up and sometimes getting something completely different?

Matt  49:56  
Yeah. Well, Ayahuasca a lot of times, you know what you, what you think you need, and what you actually need are often two very different things. And maybe even a lot of times the thing that you want, you know, if something else gets addressed, that is in relation to the thing that you want, but maybe 10 other things need to be addressed first, before you get to that point. It's, it's a process like, like we were just talking about, you know, it's, it's a modality of healing, it's something that you will continue to do. And you'll continue to uncover layers. And maybe, eventually you get to that point, or maybe eventually, you get to the point where you realize that original intention is, is meaningless. And all these other things is kind of what was causing this problem that had nothing to do with with any of that.

Danny Mulvihill  50:52  
Yeah. All right, so the diet. Now on the one hand, like the basic physical diet of eating some more, a more simplified selection of foods, abstaining from meat, you know, for the week and some time leading up to it, it makes sense because there's such a visceral component to it, where there's a lot of purging. So it makes sense that being a little bit more thoughtful about the food that's going into your stomach totally makes sense. But sometimes, the one thing I guess I really want to ask about is it's often encouraged to avoid sex, even masturbation. And I'm curious. I can think of a couple reasons why, but they're not as obvious to me. And so I'd like your insight on how that fits in.

Matt  51:42  
Well, there's a few different things I can say about that. The more practical thing is, when you -- well, it depends. First of all, it depends on why you're there, why you're drinking Ayahuasca, if you, you know, if you're dealing with some kind of sexual trauma or sexual addictions or love stuff, for whatever it is, for obvious reasons, you know, you'd want to abstain I don't necessarily think it's completely necessary to abstain during, during a retreat if, if maybe you're not dealing with any of that kind of stuff. I mean, I think it can't hurt the, so this is another thing kind of I wanted to maybe get into a little bit so there's, there's the 'dieta', the diets that you do when you're trying to heal yourself of something physical or when you're learning to work with Ayahuasca often gets confused with Ayahuasca diet for retreat. Yeah, so when you go to a retreat, you know, you still eat vegetables, you can still have salt you can still have spices -- well, little bit you know, not spicy food but you know, cilantro and oregano and all that stuff is okay. But when you when you go to the diet when you go to the jungle and you do a proper diet is that's when you know no sex, no sugar, no salt, no spices, no vegetables, no fruit, no masturbation, and that's because you're making a commitment to the plant that you're dieting to, when you, when you put yourself, when you deprive yourself of all distractions or pleasurable things that, that can give you any kind of joy in life basically. You put yourself in a position to be open to receive the teachings of that plant so that's why you diet when you, when you go do the dietas for Ayahuasca diet you really you just don't want things that are going to jam up your, your digestive system for reasons of when you go into ceremony you don't want to be you know, having to run to the bathroom every five minutes or even worse not being able to make it to the bathroom. Or you know, just having stomach issues, stomach -- there was an I, early in my Ayahuasca drinking days, I decided to have an ice cream sandwich on the way to the ceremony. And all night I couldn't purge, I couldn't shit, I couldn't puke. And my stomach was just like getting twisted in knots and stabbing pains and it was really, really excruciating for four hours and I was like oh, this is why you don't, this is why you don't eat like that like around ceremony time. So what I tell people when they come to my retreat, you really just want to stay away from spicy food because it burns coming out, dairy and red meat because they're hard to digest and can give you some, some stomach issues in the ceremony.

Danny Mulvihill  54:54  
Yeah, no, I think the -- you nailed it too with the sex thing, especially if you're showing up and that's a part of maybe what you want to heal. 

Matt  55:01  
Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  55:01  
Then yeah, it's obvious why you would avoid that. I knew that tobacco was a important component of the ceremony and was often used. I didn't realize how heavily it's utilized, though. And even how much strain it seems to put on you, and anybody else in the ceremony that's helping with it. What do you, do you have any practices to help sort of heal yourself from having to put all that tobacco in your body through the ceremony?

Matt  55:31  
The tobacco is good for you mean, it's, I know, it gets really bad rep in the Western world. And that's because well, it's a different plate, number one. So the Mapacho that I use comes from the Nicotina Rustica plant, which is not the same tobacco plant that they make cigarettes out of.

Danny Mulvihill  55:51  
Oh, okay. 

Matt  55:51  
And there's also no chemicals or anything, they grow in the jungle. They dry it out in the streets. You see it when you go when you go down there, they dry it in the streets, and they sell it. 

Danny Mulvihill  56:02  
Yeah

Matt  56:03  
There's they don't add anything to it. It's actually, I actually tested the pH of it. It's very alkaline. 

Danny Mulvihill  56:09  
Oh.

Matt  56:10  
Yeah. And I tested the pH I bought a pack of cigarettes just to test the pH of cigarette tobacco and it's very acidic.

Danny Mulvihill  56:17  
Interesting.

Matt  56:17  
Yeah. So it's good. It's, I believe tobacco is good for your -- very good for your body. That kind of tobacco. 

Danny Mulvihill  56:27  
Yeah. 

Matt  56:28  
But it does have nicotine in it and it can be abused. But I, that, that kind of tobacco like mapacho in the ceremonies. I have a different relationship with it, then. Then I did you know, I was a cigarette smoker for quite a few years of my life. I quit like five years ago, but I have a very different relationship with, with mapacho than I did with cigarettes. 

Danny Mulvihill  56:56  
Yeah

Matt  56:57  
I look at it a different way. So I, well, I feel like as far as addiction goes, you know, I can never just sit around and smoke mapacho like I did cigarettes. Sure. But it's I dieted mapacho. I went in the jungle, you drink it for three nights 

Danny Mulvihill  57:18  
Oh, you drink it even?

Matt  57:18  
before you go to bed, yeah.

Danny Mulvihill  57:20  
Wow.

Matt  57:20  
And it makes you vomit and sweat. And then you go, you go to sleep and tobacco will come to you in your dreams and teach you things.

Danny Mulvihill  57:30  
Damn

Matt  57:30  
Yeah. So it's a very powerful plant. It's used for a lot of different reasons in the ceremonies for protection. I've been protected by mapacho. And ceremonies many times when I'm being you know, when I feel something, maybe that's not so good around, I can call mapacho. And he'll come in and protect me, like a very powerful grandfather spirit.

Danny Mulvihill  57:54  
Yeah, so that's definitely worth investigating a bit because it, that's another thing I've heard about it that tobacco is sort of used to seal the ceremonial space, pert, like, clear out any negativity and things like that. And then what was really interesting is how it's used to close out the ceremony. 

Matt  58:14  
Yep. 

Danny Mulvihill  58:15  
So can you just talk us through that for people who don't know?

Matt  58:17  
Yeah, so when you drink Ayahuasca, it opens you up to have these experiences with spirits and other realms. So you can, you know, go to the kind of have, have an experience, so you can -- for me, it's about learning about death. So I get to, I get to experience that place. So it's like practice, I get the practice for when I die, so that I don't get lost in death. So when you, when you drink Ayahuasca, it allows you to see these things. And I've said this before, like looking in a microscope, you know, you see all these things that are here, and they exist, and it's, it's a fact. A scientific fact, but you don't see them. So, when you drink Ayahuasca and you're open like that, it's very, very important that before you leave the space that that be closed up, because like any, any kind of, you know, like, tarot cards, or Ouija boards, or any of that stuff, man, you can't just walk around open like that, because you're susceptible to be attacked. So that kind of back to the diet. So that's why I do the diets because in that ceremony space, it's a it's a place of protection so that when you are open like that, you are under the protection of the person who, who has been trained to deal with these things. So when you leave, it's very important that you're not open like that anymore, because you're leaving the protection of the ceremony space. So in order to not be open, to attack from things that can get to you from other places. That's what the tobacco is used for.

Danny Mulvihill  59:59  
Yeah, it also just, you know, aside from the spiritual aspect of it, it helps I think, bring the whole group together and be like, okay, like, we're, we're wrapping this thing up that we did. It brings sort of closure to it.

Matt  1:00:13  
Yup

Danny Mulvihill  1:00:13  
It was a cool part of it for me.

Matt  1:00:16  
I know it doesn't look like I like it, but I do like it. Tobacco stuff, yeah, teaches me a lot tobacco a whole lot. And I was telling Janae last week, I came to a very interesting I don't know, I thought, or I learned that when I blow -- you, I feel like I can almost learn everything I need to know about a person by blowing smoke on them. It's very strange. I know that sounds. Probably if you maybe if you haven't drank Ayahuasca before, that sounds a little weird or crazy. But people's stuff really comes out in that moment. And I'm not talking about like, sensing their energy. I'm talking about physical things. Like for an example, people that have like controller power issues, that comes out when I'm blowing smoke, you know, they don't want to work with me. They want to stand up and be taller than me. You know, things like that, little subtle things. Or, you know, I had one guy that was just like, kind of just like, lazy in life and entitled and like, would always keep his head back. So I had to like walk all the way around to get through his head. Then he would keep his back against the wall. So I be like, yo, you got to sit up, sit up. Just super, you know. And that's how he approached life. He was -- so you can learn a lot about somebody by blowing smoke on them.

Danny Mulvihill  1:01:47  
Yeah. Awesome. Is there anything that I left out that is particularly of interest to you, in regards to this whole topic that you want to spend some time kind of digging into?

Matt  1:02:00  
Mmm, hmm. Well, yeah, we didn't talk about Jeanae much.

Danny Mulvihill  1:02:07  
Yeah. Let's talk about Jeanae, she's cool, too.

Matt  1:02:11  
So yeah, Jeanae is like -- Jeanae is a very, very important part of not only Ayahuasca, and our center, but my life, for sure. And everything that we've built, I couldn't, you know, none of this. I couldn't do any of this without her. It was because of her that I kind of started taking my diets more seriously. And like her, her willingness to participate and put herself through that, like, kind of, kind of encouraged me to do the same. And just like feeling the -- like, I wasn't in this alone anymore, because I used to go diet by myself. And then when Jeanae, when Jeanae started dieting with me, a lot of things changed in regards to the ceremonies. Just all of it, our relationship. Almost everything, and she does all the website stuff. And she's kind of like, she does everything. Basically, I do the ceremonies. And now she's even helped me with that. So..

Danny Mulvihill  1:03:23  
Yeah

Matt  1:03:23  
Pretty soon I'm gonna be out of a job altogether. So yeah, I just want to say about, about today, how important she is. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:03:34  
Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up, because she is a special part of the ceremony. And the retreat itself. Like I've mentioned to a few people this week. I mean, my sort of background is in software and web development. And you guys rank man, like, I was telling her on the drive here. If you're ever looking to like, earn some extra money on the side, like your ability to get new life ayahuasca and new life retreats in front of everybody else is impressive. Yeah, there's companies charging stupid amounts of money and doing a far worse job than you are.

Matt  1:04:08  
Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  1:04:08  
Part of that comes through because clearly she has a deep personal connection to this and pours that into it, which I think is what really separates other people trying to do it to just you know, to earn some money.

That and she's sharp as fuck. 

So sharp! Like just talking to her on the drive down here. She definitely brings a lot of business acumen. Yeah, to what you guys do. And it's cool to see. Both of you be able to lean into your strengths. And then, and also, I think everybody who was at the ceremony this week would be appalled if I didn't bring up the flute playing.

Matt  1:04:40  
Yeah. Beautiful, right?

Danny Mulvihill  1:04:43  
Damn. 

Matt  1:04:43  
She taught herself how to do that in like a month.

Danny Mulvihill  1:04:46  
That's amazing. 

Matt  1:04:47  
Yeah. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:04:48  
Really, really cool stuff. So having done so many ceremonies, you've witnessed a lot. 

Matt  1:04:54  
Yeah. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:04:56  
What are I mean, there's part of me that doesn't want to ask this but I just can't help myself. What are some of the top couple of things you've seen that just blew your mind? You're like, I can't believe this person did this crazy fucked up thing, or also, let's do one crazy thing and then one like, amazing transformational thing that you guys have been able to witness.

Matt  1:05:17  
Um, well, I bring up this guy because I was talking about him with somebody. Just a few days ago, this guy came not that long ago. And when he first called me, he, he ran down a list of about 20 different -- I'm not, I'm not exaggerating about 20 different medications he was taking, alcoholic, opiate addict. And on top of, you know, anti depressants, anti anxiety, high blood pressure, you know, just you name it, this guy was on it. And I was like, Nah, man, I'm not. Yeah, no, I'm not taking him. And he was like, No, I really want this, like, he was very persistent. And so usually I don't really care, I just say no, like, you need to go do this first, or you should go somewhere that's got a medical facility on site. But this guy was very, very persistent about coming here. And that he could do this, that he can get off all this shit. So I said, look, if you, if you call me, you know. Check in with me, like once a week, once every two weeks, because he wanted to come like, six or seven months after this original phone call. So I was like, You need to check in with me. And we're gonna, you know, I'm gonna check in with your progress and see how you're making out. If at any point, you feel like, you know, it's unbearable, or you're not gonna make it, just be honest with me. And I'll you know, we'll work it out. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:05:17  
Yeah. 

Matt  1:05:23  
So this guy did, man, he stayed in contact with me. And I don't think I've ever seen anybody come off that many things in that period of time. And then made it to the retreat, was off everything. And just really dug in at the retreat, and was just a really beautiful thing to see. And I told him at the end of the week, like that, I was very impressed by him, because I have not seen -- I've maybe seen to two or three people do something to that level. In, in my whole time doing this. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:07:26  
Yeah. 

Matt  1:07:26  
So super impressive. And I actually have it on my list to call him this week and kind of check in and see how he's doing. I know Craig said, he talked to him recently. So he's still really good. So..

Danny Mulvihill  1:07:38  
That's awesome. 

Matt  1:07:39  
That was a really a big one. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:07:42  
Yeah. If you had to take a guess at where you're going to be 10 years from now, 20 years from now? What do you think the answer is?

Matt  1:07:54  
Well? Well, if I'm still alive, which, hopefully I will be. I'll be working with Ayahuasca till the day I die. Wherever that might be, I don't know, maybe it'll be here. Maybe it'll be Peru.. we often talk about moving to Peru, because the cost of living here is getting so crazy. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:08:18  
Here in Costa Rica?

Matt  1:08:20  
Yeah, and I would really like to do -- my dream is to have a piece of property that's big enough to where we don't have to worry about, you know, making too much noise

Danny Mulvihill  1:08:32  
Right.

Matt  1:08:33  
Have like five little cabinas, that people can come stay in. And me and Janae have a little house like this. And we just do small groups, you know, low price. I mean, I understand that everybody else is like, at a certain price here in Costa Rica. So maybe it's not that out of the question. But charging, charging that kind of money for retreats makes me a little uncomfortable, man, it really does.

Danny Mulvihill  1:09:05  
Is that just from your own background of needing this and now like not have been, you wouldn't have been able to do it if it weren't that you just created this opportunity for yourself to do it for free?

Matt  1:09:16  
Yeah, probably. I mean, probably has a lot to do with that. I mean, I just feel like more than that man, I just, it doesn't sit right with me with, with when I, when I go do my diets I'm often, I often get messages about that. So I, these days, I try to listen the best I can and I try to apply the things that I'm learning in those diets because when I don't it causes me a lot of pain. So I know it's the right way and I know that maybe that this is a means to that. But that's where I'd like to be man and I'd like to someday be able to charge you know much more reasonable prices, small groups. Really intimate. And just like people who are very, very serious about this?

Danny Mulvihill  1:10:09  
Yeah. Couple of things there. And I'm sure this has maybe occurred to you. So I guess I'm really just asking for your feedback on it. Has it, have you thought of some sort of hybrid model where, you know, maybe to sort of put yourselves on par with competition, and to price yourselves at a price that doesn't let people perceive you as lower value, but offering scholarship type opportunities so that if a person reaches out, it's like, I ain't got the money. You'll be like, well, that's okay. We have a program for you.

Matt  1:10:44  
Yeah, we tried that a few times. And it's weird, because I never ever get those phone calls. If anybody's listening, and you are in that situation, please reach out to us. Because yeah, we would love to do it. When we used to offer scholarships. The problem was, is we were getting a bunch of fucking rich kids calling us and lying to us. And we had a few of them. And then they start, you know, you get to know them over the week and then you see, like, this person really didn't need that. Or maybe they need ayahuasca, but they didn't need the free retreat. And they took it from somebody who maybe did.

Danny Mulvihill  1:11:21  
Yeah, so that's tough. That's a complicated. Yeah.

Matt  1:11:25  
So from that point, you know, we just said, Well, you know, if people reach out to us, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll do something, but we're not going to put -- offer out a scholarship because people take advantage. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:11:36  
Yeah, I get that. 

Matt  1:11:37  
And nobody ever fucking calls me and says, Look, I'm in this position. This is why I need this. Nobody ever does that man. And I wish they would.

Danny Mulvihill  1:11:46  
Yeah. I'm going to find somebody who needs needs your help. 

Matt  1:11:49  
Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  1:11:50  
Who deserves it.

Matt  1:11:51  
Not my help. Just,

Danny Mulvihill  1:11:53  
Yeah

Matt  1:11:53  
Help themselves. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:11:54  
Yeah.

Matt  1:11:55  
Who's willing to work with somebody?

Danny Mulvihill  1:11:56  
I think that's the other challenge is there also, to, to be ready for this type of work. One way that we can measure that is our willingness to put some money together sometimes, like it's a good way to show like, I'm trying hard enough, because money is how we measure things in our culture. And sometimes some things are given for free. They're not appreciated. 

Matt  1:12:20  
Yeah. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:12:21  
And so there's, it's that's a tough one to navigate.

Matt  1:12:24  
It is tough. And there, there's probably a balance there. And I, you know, I do feel like what we were talking about earlier, like there should be some level of commitment, whether that's financial or something else. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:12:37  
Yeah. 

Matt  1:12:38  
It doesn't really matter. But yeah, I mean, if it needs to be a financial commitment, I'm totally okay with like giving somebody a large discount if they need it. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:12:47  
Yeah

Matt  1:12:47  
But I would honestly, I feel like it would work out better if the person had no money and was able to make some other form of commitment. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:12:55  
Yeah

Matt  1:12:55  
Yeah. Cuz that's, that's kind of how these things tend to work.

Danny Mulvihill  1:13:00  
Okay, so this might get weird. You mentioned this in the circle today, that you recently turned 45. And you feel like you're past the halfway point. And then just a few minutes ago, when I bring up timeframes of 10 or 20 years, you said, if I'm still alive. I look at you and you seem like a healthy, strong, capable person who could live to be a very healthy old age to me. Does this like come from your early experience with cancer? 

Matt  1:13:35  
Yup

Danny Mulvihill  1:13:35  
Yeah. Just like afraid it's still in there. Or there's something?

Matt  1:13:40  
Well, just I know not, not so much about the cancer, about the treatment. All the fucking poison I put my body the well, not only the chemo, poison and the radiation, but then 15 years of fucking heroin addiction on top of it. You know, I poisoned myself for if you count chemo 17 years. Straight. So I'm worried someday my maybe that's gonna come back to bite me in the ass. And also just life, man. I mean..

Danny Mulvihill  1:14:08  
Sure

Matt  1:14:09  
I could walk out here and get hit by a car and be dead.

Danny Mulvihill  1:14:12  
Yeah, but you could not. 

Matt  1:14:14  
Yeah. So that's why I say if, if I'm still alive, but you know, you can't ever you can't ever assume that you're going to be

Danny Mulvihill  1:14:23  
I completely agree, you know, push back just a little bit more. 

Matt  1:14:26  
Yeah. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:14:26  
It's the, the way I personally approach it is it's just as likely that I live to be a ripe old age, I think, especially if I just talk about it as if. And so, I always encourage people to just, I always say, I'm going to live to be 150 I know that's probably bullshit. But I mean, if I make what if I made 130? 

Matt  1:14:49  
Yeah

Danny Mulvihill  1:14:49  
Just because I always set the target, it's stupid high, you know. And it'd be really cool if you stuck around for a long time. So..

Matt  1:14:57  
Definitely one of the things that I need to work on man, is my my outlook in regards to my physical body, my age. And just all the, all the past physical trauma that, that happened to my, my body. Yeah, I, I try to be aware of it. But you know, it's definitely something still hanging in there and I know I need to work on it. Yeah. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:15:24  
Okay. Cool. I trust you'll do some work on it.

Matt  1:15:27  
Yeah. Like me. Always work.

Danny Mulvihill  1:15:32  
Has anybody ever approached you and said, Matt, will you train me to do what you do?

Matt  1:15:39  
No. Yeah, I feel like one or two people did. And I said no. I said I'm still a student. Yeah. So I don't have no business being anybody's teacher.

Danny Mulvihill  1:15:51  
Is that something that you see someday maybe being able to pass on what you've learned?

Matt  1:15:56  
Well.. Well, I'll tell you what my teacher says. He says that the teachers are not teachers, the teachers are the plants. The guy who instructs you on how to do the diets tells you these are the rules, you follow the lessons you learn from the plants. So yeah, someday maybe I'll instruct people on diets. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:16:19  
Yeah. 

Matt  1:16:19  
But the teacher, the real teachers are the plants. Yeah.

Danny Mulvihill  1:16:25  
Sounds good. All right. Last question. If you could snap your fingers, or make a wish. And everybody in the world wakes up tomorrow with a new belief in their heart, mind, body and soul. Not just like some piece of data, but like, they wake up tomorrow and they believe something of your choosing? What would you pick and why?

Matt  1:16:55  
I don't know if that's a question I should answer with only a minute to think about that.

Danny Mulvihill  1:17:00  
Sometimes the best answers come without preparation.

Matt  1:17:03  
Phew. You, you gotta give me a minute. And I probably wind up calling in a day or two and saying, Can I change my answer?

Danny Mulvihill  1:17:12  
Yes. And yes.

Matt  1:17:19  
Well, probably what I would have them not believe anymore, which is in all the, the just all the bullshit the government, all of it. And I'm not talking about right wing, left wing, I'm talking about all of it, man. All the media, all the, all the nonsense that they say and all the fear tactics and all the bullshit they, they do. What.. I think that would be my wish is to have everybody -- well, I feel like a lot of people do see through it. But maybe that there would be some, some kind of change, some kind of action. So that we say, Enough, this doesn't work anymore. And we need to do, find a different way. But I think maybe that's the trick is.. what is that way?

Danny Mulvihill  1:18:07  
Yeah, we just got to find this magic wish machine. 

Matt  1:18:12  
Yeah. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:18:13  
And then give you more than one minute to come up with an answer.

Matt  1:18:16  
Well, yeah. Probably just to stop. I don't know. I mean, but then I don't know, that probably would be it to maybe see through, see what the real truth is in all this. But maybe that's a part of being human. 

Danny Mulvihill  1:18:32  
Yeah 

Matt  1:18:32  
Maybe this, this human realm is supposed to be filled with lies and pain, and it's your responsibility to see through that be the best person you can, even in spite of all this. So I didn't really answer your question. I'm sorry.

Danny Mulvihill  1:18:49  
It's okay. It's, it's sort of meant to be a tough one. Well, thank you. I mean, for everything really, Matt. Being able to sit down and record this with you and get to know you better. Yeah, it was nice. It's been really fun. I can't wait to talk to you about Drum and Bass some more someday. 

Matt  1:19:08  
Yeah, yeah.

Danny Mulvihill  1:19:10  
And obviously, the most important thing to raise the point about is my own personal experience this week, and the container that you and Janae and Craig and Lena created there. I mean, it's, I thought about this last night in a ceremony that, you know, I'd be like, Oh, it's top five experience and agreed, right. And the only addition I'd add there is you get to a certain level of experience, and it doesn't make sense to rank them anymore. 

Yeah

They're just.. nothing touches it. And there's other things that are equal and this is hands down one of them.

Matt  1:19:49  
Awesome, man. I'm very happy to hear that.

Danny Mulvihill  1:19:51  
Yes. So man, keep up the work you're doing. I know you will. 

Matt  1:19:56  
What was that?

Danny Mulvihill  1:19:56  
Keep up the work you're doing.

Matt  1:19:57  
Oh yeah

Danny Mulvihill  1:19:58  
I know you will.

Matt  1:19:58  
Always will man. Til the day I die.

Danny Mulvihill  1:20:00  
Alright.We'll see y'all next time. Peace.

Matt  1:20:03  
Hasta Luego!